Defensive pods

Given the disparity in combat experience and technology, the GA IMHO does not need to use all the tricks that they have developed in the course of their 20+ years war with each other. Having the SL see all their toys would just mean that SL can start developing the same tech earlier. Just like what was discussed in Honor's flag bridge after talking to Filareta, the GA needs to keep some aces up their sleeves.

With that premise, maybe they should keep Loreli as a back-up and use 'older' tech during the start of the upcoming hostilities.

Proposing to use defensive pods with the following capabilities.

1) Ghost Rider based missile drone capabilities built into the pod with maneuvering capabilities. (Ashes of Victory version used by Admiral Trikoupis in the Elric system)
2) 4 Dazzlers in pod.

Use of the pods would be - deploy pods and position them as desired. Pods can be programmed to move like singletons or they can move together like a division or a squadron of ships. Once the pods are deployed, Dazzlers would be launched against the enemy salvo to blind the incoming missiles'/enemy ships' sensors just as the pods' EW drone capabilities kicks in.

I estimate the size of the pods to be half the standard pod. I am sure BuWeaps can contour the pods so that 2 defensive pods would be the same size and shape as the current pods being used. This part is just a 'nice to have' property to make stowing these pods easier for pod based warships.

Rakhmamort wrote:Proposing to use defensive pods with the following capabilities.

1) ...
2) ...

The System Defense Missile Pod in current RMN service is the Four-drive Apollo variant with eight Mk25 attack/ECM missiles and one Mk25E(?) Apollo Control Missile. A network of Mycroft command modules, base on Keyhole II pods will be used to control them.

That is the system being installed around Beowulf prior to the secession vote.

Rakhmamort wrote:I estimate the size of the pods to be half the standard pod. I am sure BuWeaps can contour the pods so that 2 defensive pods would be the same size and shape as the current pods being used. This part is just a 'nice to have' property to make stowing these pods easier for pod based warships.

The System Defense variant of Apollo is a four drive MDM with FTL control, and the missile and warhead are both bigger than anything carried aboard ships. Since the pods never have to be deployed aboard ships or fortresses there is no reason to artificially limit their size.

Regular three-drive Apollo pods can be deployed in a system defense mode for interim or temporary defense -- as was done at Spindle to defeat Adm Crandall's Task Force -- but there is nothing special about the pods used.

In short, the RMN has already designed and built missiles for the role you suggest and are freely deploying them as fast as they can be built (currently at Beowulf and Trevor's Star) and show no inclination to hide their missile-tech advantages.

Rakhmamort wrote:Given the disparity in combat experience and technology, the GA IMHO does not need to use all the tricks that they have developed in the course of their 20+ years war with each other. Having the SL see all their toys would just mean that SL can start developing the same tech earlier. Just like what was discussed in Honor's flag bridge after talking to Filareta, the GA needs to keep some aces up their sleeves.

With that premise, maybe they should keep Loreli as a back-up and use 'older' tech during the start of the upcoming hostilities.

Proposing to use defensive pods with the following capabilities.

1) Ghost Rider based missile drone capabilities built into the pod with maneuvering capabilities. (Ashes of Victory version used by Admiral Trikoupis in the Elric system)
2) 4 Dazzlers in pod.

Use of the pods would be - deploy pods and position them as desired. Pods can be programmed to move like singletons or they can move together like a division or a squadron of ships. Once the pods are deployed, Dazzlers would be launched against the enemy salvo to blind the incoming missiles'/enemy ships' sensors just as the pods' EW drone capabilities kicks in.

I estimate the size of the pods to be half the standard pod. I am sure BuWeaps can contour the pods so that 2 defensive pods would be the same size and shape as the current pods being used. This part is just a 'nice to have' property to make stowing these pods easier for pod based warships.

The idea of self propelled pods has come up before, RFC has always shot it down is something that's not gonna happen. For one thing there's a size and power issue. I would think that's especially true in this case, since if you fitting 4 missiles into a half pod that means that all of your impeller ring and extra power stuff is fitting into the space of two missiles. That's only as much as it takes to fit a Apollo control missile.

If you don't want to show off Lorelei, why come up with this weird hybrid? Instead just use the existing pre-Lorelie ghost rider decoys.

(Also dazzlers should have eye little impact on incoming missiles as the radar and intership data links they jam aren't used by missiles approaching the terminal attack phase)

Jonathan_S wrote: The idea so Philpotts is come up before, RFC has always shot it down is something that's not gonna happen. For one thing there's a size and power issue. I would think that's especially true in this case, since if you fitting 4 missiles into a half pod that means that all of your impeller ring and extra power stuff is fitting into the space of two missiles. That's only as much as it takes to fit a Apollo control missile.

First of all, there probably isn't going to be a size problem. The current pods contain 10 MDM sized missiles (or 8 + 1 Apollo). The missiles in these defensive pods don't need to be MDMs since the role of the Dazzlers in it are to blind the incoming missiles while the pod spins up it's drone capabilities. That means the Dazzlers are intercepting the incoming missiles which means the range is going to be short. The space/weight/component savings from the removal of 2 out of 3 drive stages means you can put a hell of a lot of things in the pod.
Since the existing pods already have a miniature fusion plant, it will just be a matter of extending its capabilities to provide power for the pod/drone hybrid.

If you don't want to show off Lorelei, why come up with this weird hybrid? Instead just use the existing pre-Lorelie ghost rider decoys.

Because all ships can limpet/tow pods but not all ships have launchers that can launch ghost rider capable missiles. Very useful for CLACs that need to stick with the rest of the task force would benefit from these things. Smaller combatants that have limited magazine space would also benefit from this type of variant.

(Also dazzlers should have eye little impact on incoming missiles as the radar and intership data links they jam aren't used by missiles approaching the terminal attack phase)

If ship based sensors that are used for fire control can be jammed, whatever it is that attack missiles use for target acquisition can also be jammed. Use a different missile if Dazzlers aren't don't have that capability.

Bottom line is, the missile density in the current combat environment has become very very heavy. The GA is already trying to find ways to handle the change in missile threat levels. Blinding incoming missiles first right before giving them new inviting targets would be a good addition in one's defensive capabilities. It's the dazzler/dragon's teeth combination again but this time in a defensive role.

You are talking about "defense pods". Wouldn´t it be better, to develope real defense satellites? I mean a defense structure that has limited moving ability, a bigger size that can contain very big missles with very high range and a great number of them. And you can equip thes satellites with laser Cluster and maybe countermissles so that these structure can also defend themself and the planet/structure they protect.

How abput countermissile pods so you actually have a hope in the world of surviving a modern pod salvo (or even a pod + donkey salvo)

Jonathan_S wrote:(Also dazzlers should have eye little impact on incoming missiles as the radar and intership data links they jam aren't used by missiles approaching the terminal attack phase)

Actually Dazzlers are used on incoming missiles, found textev in both Battle of Solon, Battle of Manticore of AAC, and I'm just getting into MOH & ART again might be more there.

The point of using Dazzler jamming isn't to have negative impacts on the control links guiding the missiles, but to jam their sensors. Because unless you're hipshooting from under SDM range, missiles have to see the targets themselves, repeatedly it's stated both shipkillers and CM's are myopic and blind as bats.

At All Costs, Battle of Solon wrote:The five LAC wings, arranged "above" and "below" the heavier ships and fifty thousand kilometers closer to Arthur, belched an answering hurricane. Vipers and standard counter-missiles began to launch from the LACs as Mark 31s roared away from the starships, and incoming missiles began to vanish.

Brankovski had five hundred and sixty LACs, one for every thirty attack missiles, and they punched a steady stream of counter-missiles into their teeth. Tethered and free-flying Ghost Rider decoys sang to the Republican MDMs' sensors. Dazzlers were launched into their faces, exploding in bursts of blinding interference. And Imperator and her consorts punched out wave after wave of Mark 31s.

And prior to that, was the battle in Zanzibar I think, or Alizon maybe, where the Cimeterre's tried to use Zizka against system-defense MDMs, and the missiles did a pop-up, which had the unfortunate case of cutting their internal target locks. According to your logic, they'd still have good lock because they had control links guiding them, which was clearly not the case.

Three problems.

1. Using lower tech gets your people killed.

2. Sitting around when you should be smashing The enemy lets them rearm and ends up getting your people killed.

3. Extending a battle gets your people killed.

MWW doesn't want drone technology, you must think age of sail combat with missiles in space, and no drones, people running and doing everything. You should just use an LAC to jam signals and fly about.

Somtaaw wrote:And prior to that, was the battle in Zanzibar I think, or Alizon maybe, where the Cimeterre's tried to use Zizka against system-defense MDMs, and the missiles did a pop-up, which had the unfortunate case of cutting their internal target locks. According to your logic, they'd still have good lock because they had control links guiding them, which was clearly not the case.

First, thank you for finding and posting that quote. I'd obviously forgotten reading that. It dfinitely seems to show dazzlers used defensively.

However your logic on Zizjka still seems flawed for 2 reasons. One, a heading change sharp enough to interpose the wedge between a missile's sensors and the triple ripple is also drastic enough to most likely interpose the wedge between the missile and the launch ship (thus interrupting the fire control link). Bust second the missiles were so far downrange before they had to pop-up that the (pre-Apollo) control links would be woefully laggy. Even if the missile quickly required the dropped link when it reversed the pop-up maneuver the information the ship is sending is more than a minute out of date compared to what the missile was seeing prior to turning away.

It seems to me that the logical thing for the peeps to do would have been to switch up all their ECM while they expected the missiles to be blinded by the ripple. That was any that were only temporarily blinded would have to start from scratch trying to sort the targets from the decoys. If they did that it would have the same effect after the pop-up maneuver. Which the missiles took their eye off their target the target sensor profiles all changed (due to ECM settings) and the launch ships are too far away to tell them what the target now looks like before the missile hits its end of run.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:And prior to that, was the battle in Zanzibar I think, or Alizon maybe, where the Cimeterre's tried to use Zizka against system-defense MDMs, and the missiles did a pop-up, which had the unfortunate case of cutting their internal target locks. According to your logic, they'd still have good lock because they had control links guiding them, which was clearly not the case.

First, thank you for finding and posting that quote. I'd obviously forgotten reading that. It dfinitely seems to show dazzlers used defensively.

However your logic on Zizjka still seems flawed for 2 reasons. One, a heading change sharp enough to interpose the wedge between a missile's sensors and the triple ripple is also drastic enough to most likely interpose the wedge between the missile and the launch ship (thus interrupting the fire control link). Bust second the missiles were so far downrange before they had to pop-up that the (pre-Apollo) control links would be woefully laggy. Even if the missile quickly required the dropped link when it reversed the pop-up maneuver the information the ship is sending is more than a minute out of date compared to what the missile was seeing prior to turning away.

It seems to me that the logical thing for the peeps to do would have been to switch up all their ECM while they expected the missiles to be blinded by the ripple. That was any that were only temporarily blinded would have to start from scratch trying to sort the targets from the decoys. If they did that it would have the same effect after the pop-up maneuver. Which the missiles took their eye off their target the target sensor profiles all changed (due to ECM settings) and the launch ships are too far away to tell them what the target now looks like before the missile hits its end of run.

Indeed, the Zizka popup had many flaws as you observed. And I think it's one of the reasons Manticore pushed so hard on Apollo, at extended MDM range Apollo still has a shorter two-way loop than anybody else has in one-way. So the launch ships/platforms are more capable of adapting to changing ECM or battlefield conditions like a Ripple/Zizka.


I think how RFC got around the anti-Zizka popup was because it was a system-defense launch rather than a fleet vs fleet battle, there was a Moriarty style 'dispersed fire control links' system in place. Except it was designed for the salvo's Manticore intended to fire, with only the pods they have on full-time emplacement. If you have say, 500 pods in each cluster, you'd design your fire control to only handle that 500 pods and maybe a 15% flex so you can take some down for maintenance without weakening your defense. Moriarity on the other hand, was seemingly specifically designed for monstrous 15,000 plus missile salvos without batting an eyelash despite being non-FTL.


So at Alizon/Zanzibar, there might have been the distributed small fire control so the missiles didn't entirely lose connection, as there were multiple links trying to link into the missile and even through the popup it didn't go completely autonomous.... or something like that? *shrugs*