Attacking Earth

quote="StealthSeeker" quote="munroburton"

There is textev. In the big SLN admiralty meeting, near the end of MoH.

quote Which is why the redeployment of our active wall is designed to concentrate no fewer than an additional five hundred wallers on Tasmania - this time with complete logistical support and a powerful Frontier Fleet screen - within two and a half months. In three months' time, that total will reach six hundred. Which means we'll be able to dispatch a second wave, substantially larger and even more powerfully supported, against Manticore within a maximum of five months -/quote /quote


Thanks for the pointer, I looked it up and sure enough, there it was. Trying to put together another 600 ships with a whole bunch more support ships than Filateta had. But it was going to take several months to put it together. Considering the time line, and how far out they are, and the fact that many of the ships are still in transit to the collection point, do you think there is time enough to get orders to them and have them return in the small window available, to be part of the attack on Beowulf before the vote is taken?/quote

I thought the mandarins intended for the attack on Beowulf to take place after the plebiscite had taken place and returned a leave the league result.

If "somebody" has set it up such that 500 SLN SD plus screen and support/train ships are in the process of gathering at Tasmania, why would it actually be against Manticore? The SLN didn't expect Fillerta to fail against Manticore and just what exactly would the point be in building a "2nd wave" that won't be constituted and available for several months after Fillerta had made his attack? If you figure that, should Fillerta fail and be destroyed/captured, that the damage he should have done to Manticore Home Fleet - on top of both the earlier (1st) Battle of Manticore with Haven and then the Mystery Attack that destroyed the orbital industry and support, a 2nd SLN SD fleet should finally be able to capture Manticore, that could be a reason.

Or is this something being hidden in plain site by RFC? "Somebody" is putting a major % of the remaining active (and theoretically the next best) SDs PLUS screen and even more of the Fleet Train in a known place way the hell out from the SL.
Just where are the Alignment Spider Drive ships now? Could it be that they plus any new Spiders have been rearmed and redeployed to Tasmania and are targetting the SLN SD + support as they show up and move into holding positions? We really don't know much about Tasmania but it would appear to be far enough, isolated enough and have low enough traffic that NOBODY (we have been shown) has managed to pass information back to anybody who might be interested in ship movements. What a wonderfull place to ambush - because they are just sitting there.

The Alignment clearly has managed to pull the strings of SLN. Although they didn't get thier primary wish of wiping Manticore from the board, they accomplished a secondary goal of cutting the active and perhaps the most competent portions of deployed SLN capital ships down by a considerable amount. That has got to have been part of the general plan as it reduces the SL's ability to defend itself and deal with the internal problems which the Alighment has been fermenting and will use in the process of breaking the League and using the RF to redesign everything.

Brigade XO wrote:If "somebody" has set it up such that 500 SLN SD plus screen and support/train ships are in the process of gathering at Tasmania, why would it actually be against Manticore? The SLN didn't expect Fillerta to fail against Manticore and just what exactly would the point be in building a "2nd wave" that won't be constituted and available for several months after Fillerta had made his attack? If you figure that, should Fillerta fail and be destroyed/captured, that the damage he should have done to Manticore Home Fleet - on top of both the earlier (1st) Battle of Manticore with Haven and then the Mystery Attack that destroyed the orbital industry and support, a 2nd SLN SD fleet should finally be able to capture Manticore, that could be a reason.

Or is this something being hidden in plain site by RFC? "Somebody" is putting a major % of the remaining active (and theoretically the next best) SDs PLUS screen and even more of the Fleet Train in a known place way the hell out from the SL.
Just where are the Alignment Spider Drive ships now? Could it be that they plus any new Spiders have been rearmed and redeployed to Tasmania and are targetting the SLN SD + support as they show up and move into holding positions? We really don't know much about Tasmania but it would appear to be far enough, isolated enough and have low enough traffic that NOBODY (we have been shown) has managed to pass information back to anybody who might be interested in ship movements. What a wonderfull place to ambush - because they are just sitting there.

The Alignment clearly has managed to pull the strings of SLN. Although they didn't get thier primary wish of wiping Manticore from the board, they accomplished a secondary goal of cutting the active and perhaps the most competent portions of deployed SLN capital ships down by a considerable amount. That has got to have been part of the general plan as it reduces the SL's ability to defend itself and deal with the internal problems which the Alighment has been fermenting and will use in the process of breaking the League and using the RF to redesign everything.

Nice theory, but we've got textev that the Alignment Navy is all tucked up in bed at Darius, with the LDs still under construction and there was a scene where Albrecht was dissuaded from launching another operation by his sons.

Admittedly, that operation was against the GA, but from what I remember of that discussion, the overall agreement was any further deployments would be risking too much exposure.

Brigade XO wrote:
Or is this something being hidden in plain site by RFC? "Somebody" is putting a major % of the remaining active (and theoretically the next best) SDs PLUS screen and even more of the Fleet Train in a known place way the hell out from the SL.
Just where are the Alignment Spider Drive ships now? Could it be that they plus any new Spiders have been rearmed and redeployed to Tasmania and are targetting the SLN SD + support as they show up and move into holding positions? We really don't know much about Tasmania but it would appear to be far enough, isolated enough and have low enough traffic that NOBODY (we have been shown) has managed to pass information back to anybody who might be interested in ship movements. What a wonderfull place to ambush - because they are just sitting there.

The Alignment clearly has managed to pull the strings of SLN. Although they didn't get thier primary wish of wiping Manticore from the board, they accomplished a secondary goal of cutting the active and perhaps the most competent portions of deployed SLN capital ships down by a considerable amount. That has got to have been part of the general plan as it reduces the SL's ability to defend itself and deal with the internal problems which the Alighment has been fermenting and will use in the process of breaking the League and using the RF to redesign everything.

Or,... how about a really twisted conspiracy. As the Mesan Alignment pulled strings to get Filareta and all his ships together for an attack on Manticore it would seem that the MA is also responsible for pulling the strings to get the follow up 600 SLN SD's out to North Nowhere as well. I'm sure that they were intended as a follow up attack on Manticore, assuming that Filareta failed but managed to inflict very serious damage, this next 600 ships would have been Thor's hammer to what ever was left of the Manty defence. But it could have had an alternate objective of weakening the SLN inner defences for an attack by someone.

But who would that "someone" be? The MA couldn't depend on the GA as by their plans the GA should not exist. It couldn't be the RMN as they had expected Filareta to have pounded their fleet leaving them out of the picture of who could broaden the crack in the SL structure. Yet the weakening of the SL inner system defence would seem to serve some purpose. Who could they have planned to take advantage of that situation?

The MA definately wants Beowulf taken out and destroyed and the vote and the SL attempt to prevent the vote can accomplish that. But the domino's haven't quite fallen as the MA planned. Now the GA does exist and an attack on Beowulf will be repelled by either the RMN or the GA. But if the SLN group attacking Beowulf brings along with it a whole bunch of pods with DDMs. What if act of the SLN getting repelled from Beowulf causes another nanotech zombie to cause another flush of those pod missiles? This launch causes massive damage to Beowulf itself and it's orbitals leading to the death of 10,000,000 civilians on Beowulf.

This act by itself would have caused a severe and rapid fracturing of the SL and trust in the SLN would collapse. The mandarin's would loose their authority to rule/manage. The SL would splinter. There would be to few ships in the core to hold things together. This would be part of the domino falling process that the MA had put in motion, they couldn't stop it if they wanted to.

But then throw in an undefeated RMN and GA, how does this change things? Maybe the Manty's recognize what has happened with the launch of all the pod missiles, they saw it before with Filareta. This time, with understanding of what is going on, they don't fire on the SLN ships they just try to defend Beowulf as best they can. Instead of destroying the SLN ships, they capture them. The investigation into the pod launch reveals the nanotech and convinces the SL and SLN that the GA has been telling the truth about Mesa and its Alignment.

There would be no attack on Earth itself nor on the SLN.

Would this seriously turn the tables on the Mesan Alignment or what?!

A serious hunt for the MA would then proceed to begin!!!

An interesting alternative story line???

George J. Smith wrote:
I thought the mandarins intended for the attack on Beowulf to take place after the plebiscite had taken place and returned a leave the league result.

If you re-read that last chapter of ART you will find that lots of things are set on a 2 month boundary. The vote is to be taken in 2 months. The Mycroft defence systemis to be finished in 2 months. And I'm fairly sure that the Mandarins are trying to prevent that vote. They don't want to attack a non-member, they want to provide security at a member planet protecting the rest of the SL from the Manty enemy kind of thing.

Read it again and see what you think.

StealthSeeker wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:
Or is this something being hidden in plain site by RFC? "Somebody" is putting a major % of the remaining active (and theoretically the next best) SDs PLUS screen and even more of the Fleet Train in a known place way the hell out from the SL.
Just where are the Alignment Spider Drive ships now? Could it be that they plus any new Spiders have been rearmed and redeployed to Tasmania and are targetting the SLN SD + support as they show up and move into holding positions? We really don't know much about Tasmania but it would appear to be far enough, isolated enough and have low enough traffic that NOBODY (we have been shown) has managed to pass information back to anybody who might be interested in ship movements. What a wonderfull place to ambush - because they are just sitting there.

The Alignment clearly has managed to pull the strings of SLN. Although they didn't get thier primary wish of wiping Manticore from the board, they accomplished a secondary goal of cutting the active and perhaps the most competent portions of deployed SLN capital ships down by a considerable amount. That has got to have been part of the general plan as it reduces the SL's ability to defend itself and deal with the internal problems which the Alighment has been fermenting and will use in the process of breaking the League and using the RF to redesign everything.

Or,... how about a really twisted conspiracy. As the Mesan Alignment pulled strings to get Filareta and all his ships together for an attack on Manticore it would seem that the MA is also responsible for pulling the strings to get the follow up 600 SLN SD's out to North Nowhere as well. I'm sure that they were intended as a follow up attack on Manticore, assuming that Filareta failed but managed to inflict very serious damage, this next 600 ships would have been Thor's hammer to what ever was left of the Manty defence. But it could have had an alternate objective of weakening the SLN inner defences for an attack by someone.

But who would that "someone" be? The MA couldn't depend on the GA as by their plans the GA should not exist. It couldn't be the RMN as they had expected Filareta to have pounded their fleet leaving them out of the picture of who could broaden the crack in the SL structure. Yet the weakening of the SL inner system defence would seem to serve some purpose. Who could they have planned to take advantage of that situation?

The MA definately wants Beowulf taken out and destroyed and the vote and the SL attempt to prevent the vote can accomplish that. But the domino's haven't quite fallen as the MA planned. Now the GA does exist and an attack on Beowulf will be repelled by either the RMN or the GA. But if the SLN group attacking Beowulf brings along with it a whole bunch of pods with DDMs. What if act of the SLN getting repelled from Beowulf causes another nanotech zombie to cause another flush of those pod missiles? This launch causes massive damage to Beowulf itself and it's orbitals leading to the death of 10,000,000 civilians on Beowulf.

This act by itself would have caused a severe and rapid fracturing of the SL and trust in the SLN would collapse. The mandarin's would loose their authority to rule/manage. The SL would splinter. There would be to few ships in the core to hold things together. This would be part of the domino falling process that the MA had put in motion, they couldn't stop it if they wanted to.

But then throw in an undefeated RMN and GA, how does this change things? Maybe the Manty's recognize what has happened with the launch of all the pod missiles, they saw it before with Filareta. This time, with understanding of what is going on, they don't fire on the SLN ships they just try to defend Beowulf as best they can. Instead of destroying the SLN ships, they capture them. The investigation into the pod launch reveals the nanotech and convinces the SL and SLN that the GA has been telling the truth about Mesa and its Alignment.

There would be no attack on Earth itself nor on the SLN.

Would this seriously turn the tables on the Mesan Alignment or what?!

A serious hunt for the MA would then proceed to begin!!!

An interesting alternative story line???

I'm pretty sure that Manticore was NOT the primary target for the Alignment when they pulled the strings to get Filareta sent out to smack Manticore. They wouldn't have shed any tears if Manticore had gotten plowed under, but they fully expected and planned for the SLN to get reamed in the process. A point that Al-Fanudahi brings up in:

Mission of Honor, Chapter 33 wrote:“Precisely.” Al-Fanudahi rubbed his forehead wearily. “Maybe at least part of it was opportunism. Maybe the real target’s been Manticore all along, and the combination of the Manties’ confrontation with us in Talbott and their losses in the Battle of Manticore was just too great a temptation, like Rajampet’s ‘strategic window of opportunity,’ and the bad guys jumped before they were ready. But I don’t think it’s that simple. I don’t think someone who was able to build up the capabilities we’re talking about in the first place without anyone even noticing is going to just throw away all that careful concealment, however great the strategic temptation, before he was pretty much ready to move anyway.”
“Move against Manticore, you mean.” Teague frowned with a dissatisfied air. “I don’t think you’re wrong, Daoud, but at the same time, I don’t see the point.” She shook her head. “Oh, don’t get me wrong. Obviously, if we didn’t even know these people were planning whatever the hell it is they’re planning, it’s not very likely we’re going to be able to magically discern what it is they’re after. What their endgame is. And I know Manticore’s richer than sin, for its size, at least, and its merchant marine is all over the damned galaxy, with its nose in everybody else’s business. And I don’t doubt for a minute that Manpower resents the hell out of the Manties’ enforcement of the Cherwell Convention. I’ll grant you all of that. But why go to such lengths to crush Manticore? God only knows how long they must’ve spent planning and building up their resources before they could pull something like this off. So why do it? Why make that kind of investment just to attack a relatively small star nation on the far side of the damned League from them? It doesn’t make any sense!”
“No, it doesn’t,” al-Fanudahi agreed quietly. “That’s why I’m so worried by the fact that no one else even seems to care about ‘Manpower’s’ involvement in all this. Because I agree with you, Irene. Nobody’s going to go to all this trouble and the huge expense which must’ve been involved just because they don’t like the Star Empire of Manticore. There’s got to be more to it, and the very unpleasant question that’s been occurring to me over the last day or so is why they got us involved in the first place. If they already had the capability to carry off something like this attack of theirs, why run the risk of trying to manipulate us into squashing Manticore? They could’ve done this on their own anytime they wanted to without involving the League at all. And if their intelligence on Manty capabilities was as good as it must’ve been for them to have planned and executed this operation, they must’ve had a damned good idea of just how outclassed our Navy was going to be when it went up against the Manties. So they obviously weren’t counting on us to do the job for them.”
“You’re sure about that?” Teague’s question wasn’t a challenge, but her eyes were troubled. “You don’t think they might have resorted to doing the job themselves only because they’d realized we weren’t going to be able to after all?”
“No way.” He shook his head. “Just getting their strike forces into position would have taken a long time. Unless I’m sadly mistaken, they would have had to start moving them before the first New Tuscan incident. Certainly before the second one. So that means they had both wings of their plan in motion at the same time. No. They knew we wouldn’t be able to take the Manties, but they maneuvered us into a war with them, anyway. And that suggests to me that maybe it wasn’t so much that they wanted the Manties at war with us as they wanted us at war with the Manties.”
“Why?” Teague’s frown was deeper than ever, and al-Fanudahi shrugged unhappily.
“If I knew the answer to that question, I might be able to do something about it,” he said. “But what I’m very much afraid of, Irene, is that we just thought this was all about using the League to crush Manticore. I think it goes a lot deeper than that, and as preposterous as it sounds, I can only see one other target on the range at the moment.”
He looked across her desk at her, his dark eyes worried.
“Us,” he said very, very softly.

Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.

Vince wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Manticore was NOT the primary target for the Alignment when they pulled the strings to get Filareta sent out to smack Manticore. They wouldn't have shed any tears if Manticore had gotten plowed under, but they fully expected and planned for the SLN to get reamed in the process. A point that Al-Fanudahi brings up in Mission of Honor.

Chapter 33 wrote:
“But what I’m very much afraid of, Irene, is that we just thought this was all about using the League to crush Manticore. I think it goes a lot deeper than that, and as preposterous as it sounds, I can only see one other target on the range at the moment.”
He looked across her desk at her, his dark eyes worried.
“Us,” he said very, very softly.

OK,... So you, I think correctly, are calling part of my assumptions/premise incorrect in that the RMN was always intended to be at Beowulf's side and to be the one who would take advantage of so many SLN ships being out of position, leaving the core worlds so undefended. I kind of like it, it fits.

However, just as the MA didn't plan on Manticore and Haven becoming allies, because of their new awareness of the existence of the MA, via Victor and Zilwiki's work. Maybe, because of the GA's awareness of the MA and the nanotech zombies, another domino will not fall in the direction the MA had planned.

Maybe the SLN will become another ally in the hunt for the MA. The SLN may not be able to hold together, not sure if I want it to, but maybe it doesn't get totally torn under either. All because of the GA's awareness of the MA and it's toys. Things can't keep going the MA's way if they are ever going to be defeated. Beowulf will be the perfect opportunity to deal another blow to the MA's plans. And I want this Al-Fanudahi to be part of that hunt for the MA. He gets so little time in the story, but he seems to have a lot to offer.

Brigade XO wrote:If "somebody" has set it up such that 500 SLN SD plus screen and support/train ships are in the process of gathering at Tasmania, why would it actually be against Manticore? The SLN didn't expect Fillerta to fail against Manticore and just what exactly would the point be in building a "2nd wave" that won't be constituted and available for several months after Fillerta had made his attack? If you figure that, should Fillerta fail and be destroyed/captured, that the damage he should have done to Manticore Home Fleet - on top of both the earlier (1st) Battle of Manticore with Haven and then the Mystery Attack that destroyed the orbital industry and support, a 2nd SLN SD fleet should finally be able to capture Manticore, that could be a reason.

Or is this something being hidden in plain site by RFC? "Somebody" is putting a major % of the remaining active (and theoretically the next best) SDs PLUS screen and even more of the Fleet Train in a known place way the hell out from the SL.
Just where are the Alignment Spider Drive ships now? Could it be that they plus any new Spiders have been rearmed and redeployed to Tasmania and are targetting the SLN SD + support as they show up and move into holding positions? We really don't know much about Tasmania but it would appear to be far enough, isolated enough and have low enough traffic that NOBODY (we have been shown) has managed to pass information back to anybody who might be interested in ship movements. What a wonderfull place to ambush - because they are just sitting there.

The Alignment clearly has managed to pull the strings of SLN. Although they didn't get thier primary wish of wiping Manticore from the board, they accomplished a secondary goal of cutting the active and perhaps the most competent portions of deployed SLN capital ships down by a considerable amount. That has got to have been part of the general plan as it reduces the SL's ability to defend itself and deal with the internal problems which the Alighment has been fermenting and will use in the process of breaking the League and using the RF to redesign everything.

At the very least, 1/3 of the remaining active battlefleet is 4-6 months out of position to respond to anything but direct incursions through hyper from Manticore... which just isn't going to happen. For all intents and purposes, the BF is reduced to 900 active SDs and ~300 in the shop for maintenance.

The perfect time to cause trouble....

StealthSeeker wrote:If the GA ship doesn't have a prize crew for the freighter, space everything from the freighter but food, clothing and farm equipment. We don't want them to think that we are trying to starve anyone to death or kill civilian crews.

Another possibility comes to mind:

Attach an anti-tampered nuke to the freighter's hull.

"Report to Manticore for your vessel's internment, you will not be taken captive. Your vessel and it's cargo will be released at the end of hostilities."

Sure, they wouldn't have to go to Manticore but if they don't their vessel will be destroyed. What do you think they'll do?

Loren Pechtel wrote:

StealthSeeker wrote:If the GA ship doesn't have a prize crew for the freighter, space everything from the freighter but food, clothing and farm equipment. We don't want them to think that we are trying to starve anyone to death or kill civilian crews.

Another possibility comes to mind:

Attach an anti-tampered nuke to the freighter's hull.

"Report to Manticore for your vessel's internment, you will not be taken captive. Your vessel and it's cargo will be released at the end of hostilities."

Sure, they wouldn't have to go to Manticore but if they don't their vessel will be destroyed. What do you think they'll do?

freighter crew: cut a big chunk of the hull out, continue on your way with a big hole in the side. Spending a week or two in skinsuites is better than a year or two as a pow.

There is nothing that is tamper proof, proceed to your next destination, let the bomb squad difuse it. If it works, great, if it doesn't the ship is denied manticore and the crew can join another ship.