Changes in Battle tactics outside planetary hyper limits

darrell wrote:...In both cases, you are 50 tomes more likely to be fighting a missile engagement than a energy weapons engagement.

That is true, but that one time that an enemy ship (or ships) drop into energy range is going to be disastrous. It costs nothing to stay out of mutual energy range of each other to minimize the damage -- or even the likely-hood a micro-jump to energy range will be tried.

Your thinking is essentially the same thinking that put all the USAAF planes wingtip to wingtip at Pearl Harbor where one strafing run could take out an entire wing. The commander feared sabotage, but in reality just made it easier for an enemy to destroy multiple planes through fratricide.

Weird Harold wrote:

darrell wrote:...In both cases, you are 50 tomes more likely to be fighting a missile engagement than a energy weapons engagement.

That is true, but that one time that an enemy ship (or ships) drop into energy range is going to be disastrous. It costs nothing to stay out of mutual energy range of each other to minimize the damage -- or even the likely-hood a micro-jump to energy range will be tried.

Your thinking is essentially the same thinking that put all the USAAF planes wingtip to wingtip at Pearl Harbor where one strafing run could take out an entire wing. The commander feared sabotage, but in reality just made it easier for an enemy to destroy multiple planes through fratricide.

It looks like we will need to disagree on this issue.
You can either place your forces close togeather to provice a more effective missile defense or you can place them far apart for a more effective defence against energy weapons.

since it is 98-99% certain that the attack will be missiles, I prefer to position my forces for maximum missile defense.

One chance in 50 or 100 that energy weapons can take out the entire force in one wack. 98-99% chance that missiles can take out the entire force one at a time.

IMO there is a much greater chance that the force would survive if it was optimized for missile combat so that is the way to go. Positioning your force for the unlikely to happen is nice if you can do it, but IMO not if it hurts your defense of the most likely tyoe of attack.

darrell wrote:since it is 98-99% certain that the attack will be missiles, I prefer to position my forces for maximum missile defense.

The same logic applies to single-drive or cataphract missiles; they can't get in range of GA ships without dropping out of hyper already in range and firing. Single SLN ships don't have the firepower to overwhelm the defenses of a single GA ship and getting even a pair of SLN ships in their missile range of a defending task force is doubtful.

Also, IIRC, CM ranges are longer than broadside energy ranges. Ships can provide mutual CM coverage without being within energy range of each other.

OK,... Try this tactic....

As an attacker I have at least 2 forces. One drops out of hyper beyond anybody's missile range and in their approach they charge up for another hyper jump. They approach until the wormhole defending group launches a missile attack at which point they jump. Now there are a bunch of missiles out there that will never hit anything.

A frigate that was left at the point where the attacking group originally dropped out of hyper jumps to the second group. This second group drops out of hyper outside of missile range and charges for another hyper jump as they approach. When they get close enough, the defending force launches another group of missiles, not the second attacking group jumps. The frigate that they left behind jumps to the first group in hyper and passes on status.

Now, the first attacking group positions itself out side of all missile range of the defending group and again begins an approach while charging it's hyper engines. And the cycle repeats itself. How many missiles does the defending got to throw at attacking forces it knows is just going to jump away shortly after the defender has launched those missiles? How long to bleed the defending force dry of it's missiles if that force continues to launch missiles at empty space?

Large groups of mines and a newly developed type of hyper and n-space manoeuvring will be developed in a cat and mouse game of ships that silently lay in wait and mines and a whole lot of guessing will be needed.

Maybe mines can be laid that can limit the approach of attacking groups and ships can wait along those approaches to launch missiles that have a lot of AI so that they can continue the attack and the launching ships jumps before a return launch can be made.

Maybe each group starts laying mines in an effort to cut down on the manoeuvrability of the other fleet and the local space becomes completely littered with ordnance of each force until manoeuvring around the wormhole becomes incredibly dangerous for anybody.

When your ships are not within a hyper limiting zone of some type, where ships have to stand and fight, things can get complicated.

How many times?

Once. Maybe.

Second time, any commander more intelligent than Elvis will let them approach until they're inside the terminus' hyperlimit, then nail them to the wall.

A good commander will probably have already gamed this one out and pre-positioned some of his pods so that he can let the _first_ bunch into range of the terminus and then nail them.

At this point, both Haven and Manticore have pretty much expended their blithering idiots. The only major fleet that still has stock is the SLN. [Well, the IAN may have a couple, but their besetting sin seems more to be catering to their prejudices than outright idiocy]

StealthSeeker wrote:OK,... Try this tactic....

As an attacker I have at least 2 forces. One drops out of hyper beyond anybody's missile range and in their approach they charge up for another hyper jump. They approach until the wormhole defending group launches a missile attack at which point they jump. Now there are a bunch of missiles out there that will never hit anything.

A frigate that was left at the point where the attacking group originally dropped out of hyper jumps to the second group. This second group drops out of hyper outside of missile range and charges for another hyper jump as they approach. When they get close enough, the defending force launches another group of missiles, not the second attacking group jumps. The frigate that they left behind jumps to the first group in hyper and passes on status.

Now, the first attacking group positions itself out side of all missile range of the defending group and again begins an approach while charging it's hyper engines. And the cycle repeats itself. How many missiles does the defending got to throw at attacking forces it knows is just going to jump away shortly after the defender has launched those missiles? How long to bleed the defending force dry of it's missiles if that force continues to launch missiles at empty space?

Large groups of mines and a newly developed type of hyper and n-space manoeuvring will be developed in a cat and mouse game of ships that silently lay in wait and mines and a whole lot of guessing will be needed.

Maybe mines can be laid that can limit the approach of attacking groups and ships can wait along those approaches to launch missiles that have a lot of AI so that they can continue the attack and the launching ships jumps before a return launch can be made.

Maybe each group starts laying mines in an effort to cut down on the manoeuvrability of the other fleet and the local space becomes completely littered with ordnance of each force until manoeuvring around the wormhole becomes incredibly dangerous for anybody.

When your ships are not within a hyper limiting zone of some type, where ships have to stand and fight, things can get complicated.

On a practical note why would any commander fire a salvo of missiles at some one who can escape to hyper before they can be hit? Outside of the Hyper limit the question is can your missiles hit them before they can jump to hyper?

Louis R wrote:Second time, any commander more intelligent than Elvis will let them approach until they're inside the terminus' hyperlimit, then nail them to the wall.

What terminus hyper limit?

pnakasone wrote:On a practical note why would any commander fire a salvo of missiles at some one who can escape to hyper before they can be hit? Outside of the Hyper limit the question is can your missiles hit them before they can jump to hyper?

Let me think... are the defending ships, in this case some fairly light RMN units, going to try to hit targets with missiles before they get within energy range? I would think so! If you didn't the energy weapons on SLN SD's would easily kill the RMN units. But around a wormhole terminus there is very little to restrict the target of your missiles to jump into hyper once you fired your missiles.

So,... one day 20 SLN SD's come toward your position, you fire a bunch of missiles at them, they jump. Next day the SLN does the same thing. Then again, then again, then again. How many times can you fire missiles at the attacking ships, who jump after you fire, before you run out of missiles to keep them at bay? If you let them close to energy range, your dead.

Some way, through either manoeuvre or the use of a weapon, you have to be able to get at them, and destroy them, before they jump. But how? And with out exposing yourself to their weapons. The only tool in the current armoury that would help at all, that I can think of, is mines. If you had time you could build one of those forts, but Lacoon-2 will not give the RMN forces the time to build forts.


Or there is the option of setting a whole bunch of Apollo pods on most likely approaches, but if the pods were not within range of the ships, when they transition out of hyper and before the ships could become prepared to jump again, the pods would be useless. It needs to be an energy weapon that they can't see. Something that can wait and strike immediately once the enemy has come into range of it, a mine.

StealthSeeker wrote:So,... one day 20 SLN SD's come toward your position, you fire a bunch of missiles at them, they jump. Next day the SLN does the same thing. Then again, then again, then again. How many times can you fire missiles at the attacking ships, who jump after you fire, before you run out of missiles to keep them at bay? If you let them close to energy range, your dead.

That's not an optimally effective tactic. The effective tactic is something like 5 groups of 4 SDs being overt. First set bore right in from outside DDM power range. When they get taken under effective fire they jump out and a second group of 4 SDs jumps in. You, in theory, drop in at range such that you are in range and should be able to cycle your hyperdrive before missiles arrive (which I'm not 100% sure you can given the whole SLN stuff). Anyhow they switch fire to that and they will jump out. At this point the 3rd group drops in...

You also have a cover force in hyper to hit them if they jump to hyper and eventually, when you conclude they don't have enough missiles left or one of the SDs reaches effective missile range while being combat effective (they are using DDMs..) you drop everyone including the cover force on them.

Well, kzt, RFC caboshed that in ART... He placed a cycle time for SD's at 12+ minutes as I recall...

Off to go look it up... Not sure I have the time... Someone will have to do it though.