How would you attack the SL

darrell wrote:
remember that the goal is to break the SL up an all out attack on earth will tend to bring the SL back togeather.

first attack, kill all reserve ships.
wait at least 2 to 3 months
Second attack, kill all SD's
wait at least 2-3 more months
third attack kill all military shipyards.
wait at least 2-3 more months
fourth attack, kill all hyper capable warships
wait at least 2-3 more months
kill all civilian shipyards.

Make sure that you broadcast what your target is and that they have time to evacuate and minimize casualties.

I would say that your timetable is to long. I want this done in 6 months or less. The attack on the Earth solar system is not against the planet or any civilian infrastructure, just military/SLN stuff so that no further attacks like that against Beowulf which killed 10 million planet bound civilians can take place again any time soon.

I want this over as soon as possible so I can have it behind me and I can make a serious start on trying to find the MA. The real enemy.

The attack on Beowulf forces the tactics from the "genial" Lacoon strategy to this new and much harder/forceful strategy. With allies we have a lot more ships than Lacoon ever accounted for. Use them! Especially after a catastrophic attack on Beowulf. Surely not even the mandarins can expect kit glove treatment after an attack like that!

StealthSeeker wrote:

darrell wrote:
remember that the goal is to break the SL up an all out attack on earth will tend to bring the SL back togeather.

first attack, kill all reserve ships.
wait at least 2 to 3 months
Second attack, kill all SD's
wait at least 2-3 more months
third attack kill all military shipyards.
wait at least 2-3 more months
fourth attack, kill all hyper capable warships
wait at least 2-3 more months
kill all civilian shipyards.

Make sure that you broadcast what your target is and that they have time to evacuate and minimize casualties.

I would say that your timetable is to long. I want this done in 6 months or less. The attack on the Earth solar system is not against the planet or any civilian infrastructure, just military/SLN stuff so that no further attacks like that against Beowulf which killed 10 million planet bound civilians can take place again any time soon.

I want this over as soon as possible so I can have it behind me and I can make a serious start on trying to find the MA. The real enemy.

The attack on Beowulf forces the tactics from the "genial" Lacoon strategy to this new and much harder/forceful strategy. With allies we have a lot more ships than Lacoon ever accounted for. Use them! Especially after a catastrophic attack on Beowulf. Surely not even the mandarins can expect kit glove treatment after an attack like that!

remember the goal? break up the SL? politics rarely moves fast. move too fast and there isn't time for the system to leave the SL before you run out of targets and have to occupy planets.

Instead of using your entire fleet to flatten the SL and waiting 6 months before even beginning to look for darius, Use half your fleet to attack the SL, the other half for your primary objective of searching for darius. Than as more and more worlds leave the SL, a higher and higher percentage of your fleet can be diverted to the darius search. Your search for darius will actually be faster than doing it your way.

darrell wrote:the other half for your primary objective of searching for darius. Than as more and more worlds leave the SL, a higher and higher percentage of your fleet can be diverted to the darius search. Your search for darius will actually be faster than doing it your way.

Exactly how do you plan on doing this? Space is vast and they have even less of a clue as to where the theorized Mesa secret planet is than they did bolthole. Which they STILL haven't found despite years of searching.

StealthSeeker wrote:...The attack on the Earth solar system is not against the planet or any civilian infrastructure, just military/SLN stuff ...

The bombing of Pearl Harbor only struck "military/USN stuff." How did that work out for the Japanese?

It won't matter what or why you destroy in the Sol system or other Core world, the result will be the same: outrage and determination on the part of John Q. Public and eventual defeat for the GA.

Destroying the reserve does nothing to reduce the SLN's capability and arguably removes a "sunk cost" that politicians are going to want used before granting any more funds to the SLN.

The war against the League has to be economic and diplomatic, NOT hackenslash bullying.

kzt wrote:

darrell wrote:the other half for your primary objective of searching for darius. Than as more and more worlds leave the SL, a higher and higher percentage of your fleet can be diverted to the darius search. Your search for darius will actually be faster than doing it your way.

Exactly how do you plan on doing this? Space is vast and they have even less of a clue as to where the theorized Mesa secret planet is than they did bolthole. Which they STILL haven't found despite years of searching.

They never found it, and had to be told it... and I think it's specifically been left as an unknown location to us readers, because trying to explain it might just be one of those handwavium reasons

Bolthole had to be something amounting to neverneverland, because reasons, so readers will never be told precisely where it is, because then explaining how it was never found, never needs to be done.

I'd point out that the SL has already been (counter-)attacked by the GA--and not just by Laocoon II.

Michelle Henke went and took out Meyers, and her fleet is in the process of "liberating" the entire Meyers Sector while she takes her little side trip over to Mesa.

Her strategy of punching out sector capitals, then dealing with the fallout, is de facto the current GA strategy.

Whether or not that continues to be the strategy remains to be seen.

However, the Mandarins are going to have to respond somehow (and sooner rather than later) not only to GA operations in the Shell and the Core, but also to GA fleets wandering around the Verge, punching out Solarian League sector capitals. Their actual capability for responding is extremely limited--almost to the point of being nonexistent--from what's been presented so far in the books.

It has already been amply demonstrated that the SL has zero capability to seriously threaten the Manticore system itself (or, I imagine, Haven or even Grayson).

They would be able to hurt Beowulf badly, but even should they do so, they would likely lose the greater part of their remaining offensive power, leaving the GA even more free to conduct operations in the Verge, Shell, and Core.

Meanwhile, does anybody doubt that Barregos will declare Maya independent? If the SL is lucky, Maya will declare neutrality in the GA-SL conflict. If it's unlucky, it will enter the conflict as a co-belligerent on the side of the GA.

And all of this is without considering the MAlign systems, all awaiting the moment when they'll break off to form their Renaissance Factor.

If I were the GA, I would target the most militarily significant sectors and systems of the SL, and apply economic, diplomatic, and (at a last resort) military pressure to have them declare at least neutrality in the conflict if not a break from the SL and signing on to the GA.

As a carrot, I'd form some kind of free-trade zone among the GA . . . lowered transit fees and tariffs, etc., etc. to try to entice those systems that aren't really getting much of value from the SL to come over. The economic stick would be NOT being in the GA Trade Association. I'd escalate all the way up to blockade for reticent, highly strategic worlds, but only after trying the economic and diplomatic soft sell.

Militarily, apart from neutralizing SLN fleets and raiders, I'd actually try to tread exceptionally lightly . . . except in the Verge, where I'd cheerfully and with malice rip up the entire Frontier Security system and replace it with home rule (where at all possible), enforced by GA task forces "ruling the stars." Trying very hard, of course, to not create an enormous version of Silesia, that is.

Weird Harold wrote:

StealthSeeker wrote:...The attack on the Earth solar system is not against the planet or any civilian infrastructure, just military/SLN stuff ...

The bombing of Pearl Harbor only struck "military/USN stuff." How did that work out for the Japanese?

In the case of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, Japan was the country committing the surprise unprovoked attack and the US was responding. In this case the SLN is the one committing the surprise unprovoked attack and Beowulf is responding. Beowulf and it's new allies are trying to defend Beowulf from another attack, there is no "surprise" at all to what they will be doing. The mandarin's will have a hard time trying to sell the idea that they are innocent in their actions. And just like Japan, Earth is the one that will pay the cost for their actions.

filbert wrote:I'd point out that the SL has already been (counter-)attacked by the GA--and not just by Laocoon II.

Michelle Henke went and took out Meyers, and her fleet is in the process of "liberating" the entire Meyers Sector while she takes her little side trip over to Mesa.

Her strategy of punching out sector capitals, then dealing with the fallout, is de facto the current GA strategy.

Whether or not that continues to be the strategy remains to be seen.

However, the Mandarins are going to have to respond somehow (and sooner rather than later) not only to GA operations in the Shell and the Core, but also to GA fleets wandering around the Verge, punching out Solarian League sector capitals. Their actual capability for responding is extremely limited--almost to the point of being nonexistent--from what's been presented so far in the books.

Closer to later, really. Any Verge sector capital is probably approximately three months' hyperspace travel from Sol by dispatch boat.

If, as at Meyers, the GA force prevents any SLN vessels or couriers from leaving, that three month window increases to whenever a merchant wanders in and out. Since Meyers doesn't appear to trade directly with Sol, the news will filter much more slowly as long as the wormholes remain closed to Solarian traffic.

At some point, Manticore's ambassador will mention that the entire Verge has been liberated. And there'll be nothing the Mandarins can do about it by then.

StealthSeeker wrote:...The attack on the Earth solar system is not against the planet or any civilian infrastructure, just military/SLN stuff ...

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Weird Harold wrote:The bombing of Pearl Harbor only struck "military/USN stuff." How did that work out for the Japanese?

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StealthSeeker wrote:In the case of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, Japan was the country committing the surprise unprovoked attack and the US was responding. In this case the SLN is the one committing the surprise unprovoked attack and Beowulf is responding. Beowulf and it's new allies are trying to defend Beowulf from another attack, there is no "surprise" at all to what they will be doing. The mandarin's will have a hard time trying to sell the idea that they are innocent in their actions. And just like Japan, Earth is the one that will pay the cost for their actions.

unfortunately, surprise, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

If you talk to the average japanese citizen in 1942, they would claim that the US is the instigator. IN the US both the hatfields and the mccoys claim that the other side started the feud.

Attack the SOL system military infrastructure for any reason and the average earth citizen will consider it an unprovoked surprise attack.

munroburton wrote:Closer to later, really. Any Verge sector capital is probably approximately three months' hyperspace travel from Sol by dispatch boat.

If, as at Meyers, the GA force prevents any SLN vessels or couriers from leaving, that three month window increases to whenever a merchant wanders in and out. Since Meyers doesn't appear to trade directly with Sol, the news will filter much more slowly as long as the wormholes remain closed to Solarian traffic.

At some point, Manticore's ambassador will mention that the entire Verge has been liberated. And there'll be nothing the Mandarins can do about it by then.

As far as Meyers is concerned, they'll find out about it approximately a week and a half after Admiral Gold Peak takes Mesa. She's almost certainly going to use her little fact-finding mission to Meyers as justification for showing up at Mesa, and that news will head for Earth as fast as they can crank up the drives on dispatch boats.

Those dispatch boats will also carry the news that the Mesa end of the Visigoth-Mesa hyper bridge is closed to Solarian-flagged traffic.

That may not completely close off the sector. According to the Illegible Map, there are two other hyper bridges into that general area.