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Hypothetical 2.5M ton BC(P)

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Re: Hypothetical 2.5M ton BC(P)
Post by Somtaaw   » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:02 am

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Kytheros wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:
Actually Haven was already developing the tech BEFORE they signed Erewhon. The press release stating Theisman had built 60 podlaying superdreadnoughts was done months before they signed Erewhon. That Erewhon switched sides, meant a great deal to how fast Haven was "catching upto" Manticoran tech during At All Costs post-Thunderbolt era, but Haven developed their own MDMs, podnoughts, CLACs, and modern LACs entirely on their own purely off what they saw during Buttercup. Erewhon's "tech manuals and related" merely let them start the refining and polishing of their designs, but the initial designs are still 100% purely Havenite Foraker specials.

And there are/were repeated references that the League [and others] had observers at many battles, which means the SLN should have reports somewhere. That al-Fanudahi, that's in Solarian League intel and keeps pissing off his superiors because he HAS been stating that Manticore & Haven have pushed new boundaries on weapons technology, and nobody wants to hear it. As long as he isn't punished for such, when they finally start listening, the League could get their own MDM's really quickly. Not quite as quick as Haven did, because the SLN is still using missiles that were at best from pre-Basilisk Station, but they'll still get MDMs pretty quickly.

It may very well take a while to get MDMs. The MAlign started trying to figure out how to make them and still hasn't.
On the other hand, the Andies did MDMs all on their own as well, after the first war.


Indeed. If the SLN doesn't fire al-Fanudahi for being right, when all his intel shop superiors were wrong... I'd give the SLN 4-7 years to get proper MDM's. The Andermani did it, and got ships laid down and built to perform their acts of aggression around Sidemore in less than 3 to 4 T-years. Haven also did it in the same time frame.

But the SLN still has to perform the arms race build up from pre-OBS through to Buttercup which was a period of what, 15ish years? Excluding the lack of money to pay their scientists, a hot war could drop that from 15 years to 3 to get them close, but it'd still take 18+ months to just build the very first SLN podnought. That's a hard limit even Manticore couldn't beat during AAC, and explained it to Willie Alexander why they weren't building the DNP's, so the SLN certainly shouldn't be able to beat it when Manticore supposedly has/had the best shipyards in known space.
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Re: Hypothetical 2.5M ton BC(P)
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:52 am

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Kytheros wrote:On the other hand, the Andies did MDMs all on their own as well, after the first war.


There is a very strong hint that Andermani intelligence operatives have fairly deep penetration into the RMN; ref Chein Lu's dinner invitation to Honor in Honor Among Enemies. How much their MDM tech was "all on their own" is questionable.
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Re: Hypothetical 2.5M ton BC(P)
Post by Duckk   » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:28 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:There is a very strong hint that Andermani intelligence operatives have fairly deep penetration into the RMN; ref Chein Lu's dinner invitation to Honor in Honor Among Enemies. How much their MDM tech was "all on their own" is questionable.


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Re: Hypothetical 2.5M ton BC(P)
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:29 pm

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Kytheros wrote:It may very well take a while to get MDMs. The MAlign started trying to figure out how to make them and still hasn't.
On the other hand, the Andies did MDMs all on their own as well, after the first war.

Yep, Haven had the advantage of fairly close looks at the podlaying concept ship (though with SDMs); the Wayfairer class. Plus plus, despite how disastrous Buttercup went agaibst them it seems nearly inconceivable that there wasn't some mangled examples of MDM hardware laying around to dissect.

The Andies had no captured hardware to examine; but were getting hints from their agents which helped guide their research.

As far as we know no SLN, MAlign, or SDF observer had any of those advatages. That said knowing that it's possible is often half the battle.
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Re: Hypothetical 2.5M ton BC(P)
Post by kzt   » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:11 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Plus plus, despite how disastrous Buttercup went agaibst them it seems nearly inconceivable that there wasn't some mangled examples of MDM hardware laying around to dissect.

Everywhere that the Buttercup offensive hit they lost control of the system. So while their might be some of that, they were unable to take advantage of it as it was all now in Manticoran territory.
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Re: Hypothetical 2.5M ton BC(P)
Post by darrell   » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:22 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Kytheros wrote:It may very well take a while to get MDMs. The MAlign started trying to figure out how to make them and still hasn't.
On the other hand, the Andies did MDMs all on their own as well, after the first war.

Yep, Haven had the advantage of fairly close looks at the podlaying concept ship (though with SDMs); the Wayfairer class. Plus plus, despite how disastrous Buttercup went agaibst them it seems nearly inconceivable that there wasn't some mangled examples of MDM hardware laying around to dissect.

The Andies had no captured hardware to examine; but were getting hints from their agents which helped guide their research.

As far as we know no SLN, MAlign, or SDF observer had any of those advatages. That said knowing that it's possible is often half the battle.


A lot of the resources of the manti weapons developemnt is to take a look at civilian research and seeing if it has military implications.

I would be willing to bet that the initial research on super densse fusion bottles was something that started in the SL but was abandoned as unprofitable, possibly because it needed too much shielding.

The same thing with the MDM research. IMO the most likely possibility is that some SL multi-steller began the research as a way to protect shipboard nodes and was abandoned before manticore developed it for missiles.

If that is the case, it is likely that it would make it even harder for the SL to duplicate. After all, what is worse than the Not Invented Here syndrome? It is the we already tried it and it doesn't work syndrome.
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Re: Hypothetical 2.5M ton BC(P)
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:19 pm

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bit of a "jump snp" from my earlier line of thinking, a clarification on the "counter to the Sag-C plus freighters as a fighting force thread.

I wasn't specifying that a defending system not have GA tech, I'm basically offering everything up to but not including the latest FTL tech we saw at Filerata's Folly or discussed afterwards. Plus I'm giving the system defenders sixty thousand pods instead of 6,000.

But in reality what I'm also saying is part of the core to RFC's whole line of books: without an effective mobile component AND a completely well-set sensor array (aka the Haven System, Manticore, Potsdam, Grayson et al), NO system can be all that well defended, though a Jennifer Beullifeille (hope I got that spelling right) approach comes the closest, aka sucking in the enemy attackers to my defensive box before pulling the trigger.

Even without the lorelies, etc., keep in mind: the tech has changed enough that one Sag-C in competent hands would have won the actions [either side] at 1st and 2nd Yelsin, First Hancock [at least/unless the SD's came in early], Selker Rift, Cerebus, likely 4th Yeltsin (don't have the books in front of me, referring to the actions in Flag of Exile).

The DDM plus drones makes the smaller RMN ships the equivalent of a howitzer crew that can also launch tomahawk missiles with spotters sitting right on top of the target to make sure I don't miss. That's why the "space is big" problem has been reduced by latest tech to "big space is harder to defend than it ever has been before" in thE HonorVerse.
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Re: Hypothetical 2.5M ton BC(P)
Post by kzt   » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:37 pm

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You don't have to be able to stop everyone. You have to be able to make them put a LOT of effort into dealing with you. It's very had to come up with a SL defense that will stop 6 Batrons supported by 12 CLACs. But how many task force of this scale can be deployed? And how long are they dedicated to that mission, from the time they are organized into a TF against that system until they report they are ready for a new mission? 3 months? What else might they be doing, like keeping the MA from blowing up the entire infrastructure around Manticore?

And if you think the RMN will expend thousands of recon drones against a minor non-aligned system you are on drugs. They don't have thousands of the damn things to expend, and you get about 20 per ship, so you are presuming there is some sort of dedicated recon drone carrier and guidance platform that got built for this?

Not to mention that this results in a war to the knife with 1000 plus core worlds.
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Re: Hypothetical 2.5M ton BC(P)
Post by Relax   » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:31 am

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Well, Honor casually showed 250,000 pods @BOMAII, and that was only at best 10% of them. With +++2.5Million of them, somehow I don't think they will have any problems... Now add Haven's pod total to the mix. :roll:

SL core worlds are all close. Said batron or two, could literally wipe out 100 Core worlds defenses in a month. They have more than enough SDP's and freighters to wipe out the entire SL in a couple months without even scratching their paint.

The only question is: Do you really want to piss off every single star nation with a giant population and a high tech base..... :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: Hypothetical 2.5M ton BC(P)
Post by Kytheros   » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:42 am

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Relax wrote:Well, Honor casually showed 250,000 pods @BOMAII, and that was only at best 10% of them. With +++2.5Million of them, somehow I don't think they will have any problems... Now add Haven's pod total to the mix. :roll:

SL core worlds are all close. Said batron or two, could literally wipe out 100 Core worlds defenses in a month. They have more than enough SDP's and freighters to wipe out the entire SL in a couple months without even scratching their paint.

The only question is: Do you really want to piss off every single star nation with a giant population and a high tech base..... :shock: :shock: :shock:

You probably don't.
And you probably don't even need a full squadron of SD(P)s with CLAC support and accompanying screen to take out 99% of the Core Worlds.
Most of them could probably be taken out with a division of Sag-Cs, with or without pods, without getting any scratches in the paint. Personally, however, I probably wouldn't send anything without at least defensive Keyhole capability, just in case.

Instead, I'd advocate going around and demonstrating that you could have taken them out and chose not to - this time. And making the point clear that the GA is only here because the League's unelected government has decided to attack Manticore and Beowulf, and has refused all previous attempts to negotiate, and has been manipulated into the situation by the MAlign.
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