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Bellerophon

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Re: Bellerophon
Post by The E   » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:23 am

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darrell wrote:One thing that both Silesia and Talbot can do is build parts. The wouldn't be able to build the more technical parts such as computers or micro fusion bottles, but should be able to build more standard units like impeller nodes or factory machines.


Technically, sure, but I bet that the general silesian techbase needs a thorough upgrade to produce parts that match RMN standards.
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Re: Bellerophon
Post by MaxxQ   » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:49 am

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darrell wrote:
MaxxQ wrote: No one thinks the technical data doesn't exist. What you are missing (or purposely ignoring) is the fact that the tools to build the tools to build the tools to make the parts needed WERE ALSO DESTROYED!!!!!!111111oneoneone That means they have to start completely from scratch, building the machines/tools to put in the manufacturing plants that also have to be rebuilt from scratch. Dispersed yards can't do squat if they don't have the parts to assemble the ships.

Once all that's been built, why transport it all to Silesia when it's already there in Manticore? Silesia probably doesn't have the tech base to build the specialized machinery and tools for making such precise equipment such as nodes and whatever else is needed.


One thing that both Silesia and Talbot can do is build parts. The wouldn't be able to build the more technical parts such as computers or micro fusion bottles, but should be able to build more standard units like impeller nodes or factory machines.


Cite?
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Re: Bellerophon
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:00 am

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MaxxQ wrote:
darrell wrote:
One thing that both Silesia and Talbot can do is build parts. The wouldn't be able to build the more technical parts such as computers or micro fusion bottles, but should be able to build more standard units like impeller nodes or factory machines.


Cite?
I know Silesia and Talbott both had yards capable of building freighters and cruisers (up to battlecruisers in the case of Silesia). I doubt they imported all the drive nodes they used.

Of course their nodes would be older tech, less powerful than current Manticoran designs, more massive (aka not Beta Squared) and without the high bandwidth FTL transmission tech that's built into current RMN nodes.
But you know, aside from being 20 years out of date, they can probably manufacture reasonably ok merchant or cruiser impeller nodes :D

(Not that that helps with either what Manticore needs to rebuild their orbital industry, or what Skimper would need to support his latest flight of fancy; but you know if you ignore all the differences they can build "nodes" :D :D)
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Re: Bellerophon
Post by MAD-4A   » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:17 am

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darrell wrote:One thing that both Silesia and Talbot can do is build parts. The wouldn't be able to build the more technical parts such as computers or micro fusion bottles, but should be able to build more standard units like impeller nodes or factory machines.
Yes because they are all a bunch of barbarians running around in loin cloths and throwing stones at each other ... oh wait ... they are all on other planets!!! They are space faring societies, so why couldn't they build the parts? you don't need to know how to design a computer to plug "part A" into "part B" and tighten "Screw C". Happens all the time here on Earth, uneducated 3rd world labor slapping together computers, TVs, etc... for sale in the US, Australia, Western Europe. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to slap two pieces of one together and turn a crew driver. Sure they could build anything the Manties needed them to, just need some minor instruction on the new hardware and equipment, also, no - the tools to build the tools were not all destroyed, they would not have all been on the space stations, if so - then their high command were a bunch of dufuses and deserve to lose. the active equipment to build the systems were but other equipment were on the tenders and the equipment to build that equipment would have been on planet or elsewhere, especially after what happened over Basilisk and at Grendelsbane.
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Re: Bellerophon
Post by jchilds   » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:03 pm

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MAD-4A wrote:<snip> you don't need to know how to design a computer to plug "part A" into "part B" and tighten "Screw C".<snip>


Sigh. Now I'm wondering if IKEA survived to become one of the Solly trans-stellars and if they've branched out into starships. Can you imagine the class-names and design philosophies of IKEA produced ships? Never mind the assembly instructions and "tools" that come with the pack of parts...
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Re: Bellerophon
Post by Vince   » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:19 pm

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MaxxQ wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:It sure appears from the cutaway drawings that Mk13 missiles are pretty much the same dimensions of the Mk16. Refitting to fire Mk16's shouldn't be such a big deal, from the missile tube impossible to cut through armour point of view. Internal refits will be gutted and replaced but then that is what a refit is.


Dispersed yards are built around parked ships. No big deal here.
Even Graysons could do this. As for people who think that the technical data no longer exists nor that the refineries or part making facilities where on the stations well we will just point out they don't know what a dispersed yard is.


Okay.... I was stupid and actually read this post (bangs head on table). Skippy, the Mk-13 is capacitor-powered and the Mk-16 is fusion-powered. That means ripping the guts out of the power-up system and replacing it. It's not just a matter of "boring out the tubes" (facepalm - so much wrong with that ASSumption) so the missile will fit.

The Mk-16 is also longer, maybe not much longer, but long enough to require a rebuild of the magazines to fit them. They are made to tight tolerances, with not much more than a couple cm between the missile and the walls of the magazine. This, of course, means tearing apart the armor of the magazine, which may be thinner than hull armor, but is just as tough.

No one thinks the technical data doesn't exist. What you are missing (or purposely ignoring) is the fact that the tools to build the tools to build the tools to make the parts needed WERE ALSO DESTROYED!!!!!!111111oneoneone That means they have to start completely from scratch, building the machines/tools to put in the manufacturing plants that also have to be rebuilt from scratch. Dispersed yards can't do squat if they don't have the parts to assemble the ships.

Once all that's been built, why transport it all to Silesia when it's already there in Manticore? Silesia probably doesn't have the tech base to build the specialized machinery and tools for making such precise equipment such as nodes and whatever else is needed.

....................Image

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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Bellerophon
Post by Louis R   » Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:04 pm

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Doesn't make them any less reasonable, when they are. That's why I peek into these threads a page late - if any real insight is generated, it's about that point.

MaxxQ wrote:
Louis R wrote:To be fair, he does sometimes inspire reasonable thoughts in others.



Only because they're trying to explain how the crap he comes up with can't possibly work.
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Re: Bellerophon
Post by Somtaaw   » Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:37 pm

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jchilds wrote:
MAD-4A wrote:<snip> you don't need to know how to design a computer to plug "part A" into "part B" and tighten "Screw C".<snip>


Sigh. Now I'm wondering if IKEA survived to become one of the Solly trans-stellars and if they've branched out into starships. Can you imagine the class-names and design philosophies of IKEA produced ships? Never mind the assembly instructions and "tools" that come with the pack of parts...


Oh god, why? :shock:
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Re: Bellerophon
Post by saber964   » Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:21 pm

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Putting together a computer from a parts list is easy in an assembly line situation. But the prototyping takes months or years to accomplish. Here is a RW example of training it takes to become a welder. I obtained mine from a local community college. It took a year of classes averaging 30-40 hours per week just to be a welder, but not a certified welder which can take another 50-100 hours depending on certification type and level.
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Re: Bellerophon
Post by Kytheros   » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:25 pm

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MAD-4A wrote:
darrell wrote:One thing that both Silesia and Talbot can do is build parts. The wouldn't be able to build the more technical parts such as computers or micro fusion bottles, but should be able to build more standard units like impeller nodes or factory machines.
Yes because they are all a bunch of barbarians running around in loin cloths and throwing stones at each other ... oh wait ... they are all on other planets!!! They are space faring societies, so why couldn't they build the parts? you don't need to know how to design a computer to plug "part A" into "part B" and tighten "Screw C". Happens all the time here on Earth, uneducated 3rd world labor slapping together computers, TVs, etc... for sale in the US, Australia, Western Europe. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to slap two pieces of one together and turn a crew driver. Sure they could build anything the Manties needed them to, just need some minor instruction on the new hardware and equipment, also, no - the tools to build the tools were not all destroyed, they would not have all been on the space stations, if so - then their high command were a bunch of dufuses and deserve to lose. the active equipment to build the systems were but other equipment were on the tenders and the equipment to build that equipment would have been on planet or elsewhere, especially after what happened over Basilisk and at Grendelsbane.

No, they're not primitives bashing each other with rocks. No one is saying that they are.

However, the high tech stuff that gave Manticore its edge? That's not unskilled or lightly skilled production. That's a high skill requirement production. The modern equivalent is probably the places building the computer chips themselves compared to the places putting those chips together into a computer. Assembly of prebuilt parts is easy - building those components is not.


Silesia and Talbott both have tech bases several generations behind that of Manticore.
This is a rough analogy - Manticore was working in nanometers, whereas Silesia and Talbott work in centimeters (or maybe inches). Silesia and Talbott would need to build several generations of tools building better tools to build better tools. Or that buildup can be put on hold for Manticore to be rebuilt (which will be faster) and jump over those iterations of building tools to build better tools to build better tools.
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