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Attacking Earth

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Re: Attacking Earth
Post by Theemile   » Mon May 23, 2016 4:53 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
drothgery wrote:Erm... they also genetically engineered their colonists. And I suspect that Web (no geneticist or biologist) was (probably unintentionally) underplaying the degree of genetic manipulation they did.


Cite?

I don't doubt there is one, but I'd like to read it in context, and can't find it.


SFTS Chapter 10

It would no doubt have helped, in some ways, at least, if Leonard Detweiler had fully worked out his grand concept before establishing Manpower. No one could think of everything, unfortunately, and one thing Mesa's geneticists still hadn't been able to produce was prescience. Besides, he'd been provoked. His Detweiler Consortium had first settled Mesa in 1460 PD, migrating to its new home from Beowulf following the discovery of the Visigoth System's wormhole junction six T-years earlier. The Mesa System itself had first been surveyed in 1398, but until the astrogators discovered that it was home to one of the two secondary termini of the Visigoth Wormhole, it had been too far out in the back of beyond to attract development.
That changed when the Visigoth Wormhole survey was completed, and Detweiler had acquired the development rights from the system's original surveyors. The fact that the planet Mesa, despite having quite a nice climate, also possessed a biosystem poorly suited to terrestrial physiology helped lower the price, given the expenses involved in terraforming. But Detweiler hadn't intended to terraform Mesa. Instead, he'd opted to "mesaform" the colonists through genetic engineering. That decision had been inevitable in light of Detweiler's condemnation of the "illogical, ignorant, unthinking, hysterical, Frankenstein fear" of the genetic modification of human beings which had hardened into almost instinctual repugnance over the five hundred T-years between Old Earth's Final War and his departure for Mesa. Still, however inevitable it might have been, it had not been popular with the Beowulf medical establishment of the time. Worse, the fact that Visigoth was barely sixty light-years from Beowulf had guaranteed that Mesa and Beowulf would remain close enough together (despite the hundreds of light-years between them through normal-space) to be a continuous irritant to one another, and Beowulf's unceasing condemnation of Detweiler's faith in the genetic perfectability of humanity had infuriated him. It was, after all, the entire reason he and those members of the Beowulf genetic establishment who shared his views had left Beowulf in the first place.
It was quite clear that Leonard's decision to rename the Detweiler Consortium "Manpower, Incorporated," had been intended as a thumb in the eye to the entire Beowulf establishment, and that thumb had landed exactly where he'd aimed it. And if Beowulf had been . . . upset by the Detweiler Consortium's practice of wholesale genetic modification of colonists to suit hostile environments like Mesa, it was infuriated when Manpower began producing "indentured servants" genetically designed for specific environments or specific tasks. At first, periods of indenturement on Mesa itself had been limited to no more than twenty-five T-years, although even after completing their indentures, the "genetic clients" had been denied the franchise and generally treated as second-class citizens. As they became an increasing percentage of the planetary population, however, the planetary constitution had been modified to make "indenturement" a lifelong condition. Technically, Mesa and Manpower continued to insist that there were no such things as "slaves," only "indentured servants," but while that distinction might offer at least some useful smokescreen for Mesa's allies and paid mouthpieces in places like the Solarian League's Assembly, it was meaningless to the institution's opponents.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Attacking Earth
Post by kzt   » Mon May 23, 2016 4:55 pm

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[quote="cthia"
Just when I find it so very difficult to believe that so many people could follow a David Koresh, I run into the same naive thinking in a forum.
[/quote]
Perhaps that's because you haven't drunk the Jimmy Jones grape kool-aid?
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Re: Attacking Earth
Post by Vince   » Mon May 23, 2016 6:25 pm

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The quote chain in context, in order, with quotes un-nested:
cthia wrote:...The Mfecane Worlds have many problems of their own, even inside of Beowulf's moral fence. ...
Weird Harold wrote:The point about the Mfecane worlds is that they do not, and never have had, any concern about imposing their ideas on the rest of humanity. The founders were racist nutjobs, but through initial poverty and philosophical intent they simply let "natural selection" transform their colonists to suit the planets.
drothgery wrote:Erm... they also genetically engineered their colonists. And I suspect that Web (no geneticist or biologist) was (probably unintentionally) underplaying the degree of genetic manipulation they did. There just wasn't enough time to get any significant results from just natural selection (as per the Grayson heavy metal tolerance... which Alison Harrington discovered was not natural at all).
Weird Harold wrote:Cite?

I don't doubt there is one, but I'd like to read it in context, and can't find it.

Here is the reference to the genetic manipulation the original colonists of the Mfecane worlds performed on themselves:
Crown of Slaves, Chapter 18 wrote:After she and Victor gave the waiter their orders, Thandi cocked her head. "And what would you know about my metabolism?"
"I study things. Ginny tells me I'm compulsive about it. So after I met you, I did some research on the Mfecane worlds. Ndebele, in particular."
"And?"
He made a face. "If you'll pardon my saying so, your ancestors were a bunch of lunatics."
"Tell me something I don't know."
"Still, there was a method to their madness. At least, once you get past the initial premise that the African genotype is the purest human stock. It's actually the most variegated, since it's the oldest. However, in an odd sort of way, that initial racialist obsession worked to their advantage. Because it meant that they had the widest genetic variation to start applying natural selection to, not to mention—"
"Their own grotesque genetic manipulations."
Harshly: "Tell me something I don't know."
He shrugged. "What I suspect you don't know—fully realize, anyway—is that the combined effect of the whole process made the Mfecane worlds an even greater experiment in human development than the Ukrainian laboratories which produced the so-called 'supersoldiers' of the Final War, whose modern descendants we call 'Scrags.' About the only thing comparable is the slave breeding laboratories run by Manpower Unlimited. Except that Manpower is deliberately trying to contain development within narrow limits, whereas your ancestors were trying to exceed all limits. Which they certainly did, as far as most physical characteristics are concerned."
"Yeah, great," she said sourly. "That explains why we're all serfs today."
"Well, I did say they were a bunch of lunatics. I know this will sound cold-blooded, but I actually find the fact that neither the Ukrainians nor the Mfecane founders succeeded in their aims to be profoundly satisfying. Philosophically, if you will." A bit stiffly: "I've detested elitism my entire life. That much hasn't changed, whatever else I've changed my mind about."
Thandi smiled crookedly. "Shrimps of the world, unite, is that it?"
His own smile was just as crooked. "What can I say? I'm not much good at it myself, but the crude and simple fact is that the main way the human race gets ahead is by being lovers, not fighters. Mix it all up, and let the devil take the foremost. If nothing else, the supermen will starve quicker."
Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Attacking Earth
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon May 23, 2016 7:35 pm

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Vince wrote:...
Here is the reference to the genetic manipulation the original colonists of the Mfecane worlds performed on themselves:
Crown of Slaves, Chapter 18 wrote:After she and Victor gave the waiter their orders, Thandi cocked her head. "And what would you know about my metabolism?"
"I study things. Ginny tells me I'm compulsive about it. So after I met you, I did some research on the Mfecane worlds. Ndebele, in particular."
"And?"
He made a face. "If you'll pardon my saying so, your ancestors were a bunch of lunatics."...
...


Thanks.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Attacking Earth
Post by Sigs   » Mon May 23, 2016 10:15 pm

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The E wrote:
Okay, could you please try this again, but without appeals to religion?

What the alignment wants to do is to broaden the definition of what "human" means. Nothing more, nothing less, and in case you haven't noticed, that definition has been altered a lot over the years.


Why didn't they openly do that over the 600+ years before the main series?

The fact is that they want to impose their beliefs on the rest of humanity otherwise they would have spend the previous 6 centuries gradually making the changes and letting whoever wants to adapt to them do so and those who want to stay away do so as well.


This is about religion and this is about a god, but in this case the religion is genetic engineering and the god(s) are the Detweiler clan because they want to destroy the galaxies political landscape, put themselves in charge and force their beliefs onto trillions of human beings whether those people want it or not.
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Re: Attacking Earth
Post by cthia   » Sun May 29, 2016 8:31 am

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Bill Woods wrote:
The E wrote:And to repeat: Why is what the Alignment does evil?

[blink]
Uh, Slavery? Killing millions of people, and causing many many millions more to die? The amount of human misery the Malign is responsible for, directly and indirectly, consciously and deliberately, is monstrous.
"By their fruits ye shall know them."
cthia wrote:And that's just macroscopically.

Microscopically, it bOgGleS the mInD.


Just when I find it so very difficult to believe that so many people could follow a David Koresh, I run into the same naive thinking in a forum.

People that have that type of logic disconnect should tie a string around their finger to stay away from Compounds.



The E wrote:The E wrote:How much further could humanity go, how many different avenues could we explore, if we weren't bound by the Beowulfan ideal of what a human is?
cthia wrote:How many more medical breakthroughs could we have if we were allowed to operate and perform any kind of experiments on humans (that we wouldn't advise to any of our family and friends by the way), with complete emotional detachment to the horrors of trial and error - with absolutely no remorse or scientific accountability beyond the essential "I told you so" Nobel Peace Prize sought after by Detweiler.



cthia wrote:My friends say that many in the forum seem to be ignorant of the atrocities of genetic research at the "microscopic" level. It is like the chicken that we eat in the supermarkets, yet are completely ignorant of the horrible conditions that produced the chicken in the package. Also, what I gathered, is that these meddling procedures may not bear erroneous fruit until decades or centuries long after they have been introduced into humanity. (Which is why Detweiler keeps he and his outside of immediate introduction and experimentation) Genetic tampering is not just akin to speeding up the "intrinsically safe" slow process of evolution but it does it along an unnatural, unclear, risky and deviant line of sight.

A couple of my friends also delved into some of the microscopic failures that would certainly be a given. They stated that even amongst the "successful" lines there would be "problems." Problems that Detweiler might would overlook as "minor" yet would be wreaking havoc within the line. And these lines would be hesitant to complain in a society where "faulty" offspring are euthanized. Simple things like subtle yet incorrectly formed nasal passages, for example, "inbetween" evolutionary stages that impede breathing under certain conditions that may not be detected until too late in the stage - which wreaks all forms of havoc on the emotional and physical living conditions of their lives - simply as a measured point in discussion.


Microscopic Atrocities at the Malignant Level

I failed to include this from my friends' discussions. It (as was much of their discussion) was rather repulsive and I think my brain [jailed the memory of it] like a virus handled by Norton Utilities. I'd rather forget some of the discussion...

Babies born with a pulser to their head because they are so hideously formed that they have to be put down like lamed horses and then... then you hope the process at an even higher magnification is humane. Are they being handled properly? Is it painless? Are the "doctors" emotionally involved (God I hope so). Or have they inevitably become cold, emotionally detached, numb from euthanizing day in and day out around the clock. - if even to protect their own heart from the emotional bombardment that must be inherent in assembly line killing. Is "babyMA #35578245" born so hideously formed that even the "doctor" treats it like a monster? Is the doctor a monster himself? Poor misborn creature of man's arrogance. It's okay, as long as its not his child. I suppose that these doctors themselves can be genetically engineered to filter out the emotions that would get in the way - just identify the gene associated with bedside manners and delete it, creating a doctor with the cold bedside manners of a petri dish.

What happens when a line is determined to have a felony defect and the line must be discontinued? Will the existing line get to live out their lives?

Alison can work on the Beowulf side of the fence with confidence. Science has conqured that Wild Wild West and laid tracks all the way to the Netherworld border. But the train safely stops there. Alison can guarantee Emily that she won't bear a child that won't regenerate. Because the magic of regen and prolong all happen on this side of Beowulf's fence.

On the other side, it's not so clear cut. Under a microscope, there's lots of "don't touch this" "don't touch that!" All those things are clearly marked on the safe side.

Detweiler reminds me of a spoiled brat that got embarrassed in class. And its turned him into a bully, hellbent on sick revenge.

****** *

Incidentally...
cthia wrote:And before anyone dumbfounds me and asks "What is wrong with ushering in a new age of biological species?" ...

Because we are not Gods! Creating life forms is a God's purview. Since many of you don't believe in the concept of a God, then why insist on acting like one? Unless you think that life was initially created by mindless arrogant humans in the backwoods of the galaxy???
The E wrote:Okay, could you please try this again, but without appeals to religion?
You opened up the religious door yourself' on page nine. I came oh so close to asking you not to, because I knew you didn't really want to go there...
The E wrote:Essentially, you're making the same supremely fallacious argument that people have been making against atheism: "If you do not follow the Bible or the Church, you are acting immoral by definition".

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Earth
Post by cthia   » Sun May 29, 2016 9:18 am

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The E wrote:To see an american conservative express a deeply held belief that what a distant, unaccountable government does is best for everyone is incredibly hilarious.
cthia wrote:Not best for everyone E., but in the best interest of mankind.
The E wrote:I'm curious what you think the difference is.


****** *

The E wrote:I'm curious what you think the difference is.

Scope. In this case macro-SCOPE-ically as opposed to micro-SCOPE-ically.

Microscopically, the selfish notion of ("everyone"), bespeaks of the selfsame notion of the "individual" which fails to realize the profundity of a God's-eye, excuse me - birdseye view of the macroscopic stance. ("mankind")

Some may prefer to rearrange the notions of microscopic and macroscopic, yet no matter the choice of nomenclature the gist of the line will still read the same.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Earth
Post by Rincewind   » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:24 pm

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Can I ask a question?

What on Earth does discussions about genetic uplift & atrocities on the microcellular level etc got to do with my original post on whether or not the GA attacking Earth would have been a big mistake?

I am constantly amazed at the ability of people to distort a topic into a pretzel & come up with a completely different subject.
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Re: Attacking Earth
Post by StealthSeeker   » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:48 pm

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my idea on attacking Earth was that the GA would have a hard time getting the people of the SL not to get all indigent about it if the GA just attacked. However, if the GA attacked with Beowulf in response to what seems to be an inevitable attack on Beowulf by the SLN, there might be a great deal of grudging understanding as to why it happened. Not that they would like it, but they may not be able to believe in themselves as innocent or undeserving of an attack if it was done is response to an attack on Beowulf by the SLN.

A second strategy might be that rather than destroying civilian infrastructure they just attacked military infrastructure and then left, rather than trying to force a surrender followed by an occupation. The destruction of all things military could be justified by Beowulf as an act of reprisal and defense rather than an unreasonable attack.

one tactic I like is to send a task force to each of the half dozen planets that have mothballed reserve fleets and destroy those empty hulls before any of them can be brought back into service in support of the SLN commerce raiding plan. To save on torpedoes, I would lure the main defense out to meet a "visible" attack force while a bunch of LAC's "ghost" through and use their grazers to destroy the inactive, unoccupied and unarmed ships.

But, as I say, the attack on Beowulf has to occur first to provide justification.
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I think therefore I am.... I think
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Re: Attacking Earth
Post by MaxxQ   » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:49 am

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Rincewind wrote:Can I ask a question?

What on Earth does discussions about genetic uplift & atrocities on the microcellular level etc got to do with my original post on whether or not the GA attacking Earth would have been a big mistake?

I am constantly amazed at the ability of people to distort a topic into a pretzel & come up with a completely different subject.


<shrug> It's called thread drift, and it happens everywhere. I've been a member of a certain messageboard relating to the band Rush for about 20 years now, and I've never seen a thread there stay on topic for more than a couple pages. Somebody makes a post, somebody replies to it, and a third somebody also replies, but adds something else, usually in an offhand way. The next person picks up on that and runs with it. The best anyone can do to steer the thread back is to post something relevant to the OP, and hope that someone else responds to it.

The only way to prevent it is to not reply at all to a first post in a thread.

Edit: Ironically, you've just created a new direction of thread drift just by asking about it. :mrgreen:
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