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Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory

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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by pnakasone   » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:16 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:Yes, that is the question, and that depends on the resolution which RFC wants in the final book of the series.

Not finding and neutralizing Darius would mean that the Detweiller class SDs would be free to wreak havoc all over the place. I don't see the MAlign pulling in its horns enough to decide not to use them if they have them available.

If RFC decides to leave Darius, the RA and the MAlign in place after the series concludes with A Whiff of Honor (a title I just invented), I suspect you'll hear the outrage from the fans from here to Aldebaran.


I think the last thing Detweiler would do is throw a temper tantrum and use thous ships if Mesan Alignment lost control of the RF worlds. The smart thing to do would be to fall back to Darius wait some time for memory of them to fade and being the plan all over again or try a different plan. Remember they do not want take over universe by force of arms but to seduce and subvert it into their way of thinking. For as long as Darius remains hidden and secure they can keep trying.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:40 am

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pnakasone wrote:I think the last thing Detweiler would do is throw a temper tantrum ...


Actually, I think his desire to see the final MAlign victory in his "prolonged" life-span would lead to a a temper tantrum on the same level as the one that led Leonard Detweiler to stomp off the Mesa where, "Beowulf can't tell Me what to do."

Albrecht is horrible intelligent but not very wise. He's already demonstrated a tendency to go off half-cocked in pushing up Oyster Bay and Houdini when his half-baked plans responding to the Manticoran discovery of the Lynx Terminus. A rolling on the floor with feet kicking tantrum wouldn't surprise me greatly, although another half-baked plan to salvage the Great Plan is more likely -- including using the Lenny Dets to further the Renaissance Factor's progress.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by JohnRoth   » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:59 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
pnakasone wrote:I think the last thing Detweiler would do is throw a temper tantrum ...


Actually, I think his desire to see the final MAlign victory in his "prolonged" life-span would lead to a a temper tantrum on the same level as the one that led Leonard Detweiler to stomp off the Mesa where, "Beowulf can't tell Me what to do."

Albrecht is horrible intelligent but not very wise. He's already demonstrated a tendency to go off half-cocked in pushing up Oyster Bay and Houdini when his half-baked plans responding to the Manticoran discovery of the Lynx Terminus. A rolling on the floor with feet kicking tantrum wouldn't surprise me greatly, although another half-baked plan to salvage the Great Plan is more likely -- including using the Lenny Dets to further the Renaissance Factor's progress.


In thinking about this, it occurs to me that Albrecht Detweiller's biggest blind spot is that he's too used to playing against an opponent who's oblivious to the fact that there's a war on! He's too dependent on the opposition not picking up on random clues. Once he unleashes the Lenny Dets, a few mysterious cases where a systen's infrastructure has been wiped out are going to start adding up in people's minds.

I believe that Sun Tzu had a paragraph or so about that.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:54 pm

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[quote=

Actually, I think his desire to see the final MAlign victory in his "prolonged" life-span would lead to a a temper tantrum on the same level as the one that led Leonard Detweiler to stomp off the Mesa where, "Beowulf can't tell Me what to do."

Albrecht is horrible intelligent but not very wise. He's already demonstrated a tendency to go off half-cocked in pushing up Oyster Bay and Houdini when his half-baked plans responding to the Manticoran discovery of the Lynx Terminus. A rolling on the floor with feet kicking tantrum wouldn't surprise me greatly, although another half-baked plan to salvage the Great Plan is more likely -- including using the Lenny Dets to further the Renaissance Factor's progress.[/quote]

In thinking about this, it occurs to me that Albrecht Detweiller's biggest blind spot is that he's too used to playing against an opponent who's oblivious to the fact that there's a war on! He's too dependent on the opposition not picking up on random clues. Once he unleashes the Lenny Dets, a few mysterious cases where a systen's infrastructure has been wiped out are going to start adding up in people's minds.

I believe that Sun Tzu had a paragraph or so about that.[/quote]
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The Alignment has only cared it is not technically guilty of an EE violation to keep somebody (particularly the SL) from getting interested or motivated to search them out because they committed an EE violation. Remember, Grayson and Manticore are already going to be searching long and hard to find out who hit their orbitals, getting the SL (or any body else) interested in finding the culprits (at this point the Mandarin's at least could not actualy care which is at best short sighted of them given the scope and technology of the attack) because it was an EE violation.

You will recall that the Alignment doesn't actual care how many Normals are going to be killed in the fighting and chaos of the events leading up to and then the breakup of the SL?

THEY DO NOT CARE.

Given that the GA now appears to be massivly changing the direction of the Alighment plans and truly screwing with all manner of Alignment's timetable, will there come a point where the Alignment will just go ahead and try to do more than just take out the governments of the major impediments?

Oyster Bay was designed and planned to cripple at least one major power in the orchestrated destruction of the SL and allow for the rise of the RF and implimentation of the Alignment's policies, plans, and control of the destiny of humanity. The original target seems to have been People's Republic of Haven but that got changed. Manticore didn't get taken over (how unsuporting and uncooperative of them) and the targets were changed on the fly were advanced to take out Manticore and Grayson's infrastuctue but the attack was both much earlier and much smaller than planned because of the timing and the tech imbalance.

What is to keep the Alignment from changeing the operational plan and timing again? Ok, Houdini has come off- so far- mostly to plan but there are loose ends although the Alignment doen't know about those yet. Given the track record of Manticore and the restored Republic of Haven, it is POSSIBLE that Mesa will actually become a threat to the Alignment as the surviving government (old and we presume new) and emerging Sr. officials (like the Peaceforce General) have to deal with realization that they were less than pawns and obviously expendable is someone else's plan.

So, run another early and preemptive strike on more than just orbital infrastructure of a number of systems/polities and include at least one EE level strike on "major" planets involved. Sure, use the Sharks and the 1st Lenny Dets that come off the yards if you can get them fast enough but at least the Sharks and probably the Ghosts and any other Spider Drive ships even if you have to strap the ordnance to the hulls. And, only one ship per system this time since you aren't going to wipe out the orbitals, you are going to throw a weapon at the planet. Manticore, Sphinx, Gryphon, Grayson, Sol. The Aldermani capital and at least one nodal headquarters, Erwhon, Haven and two or three major planets of RH, Beowulf, 6 or 7 other major SL systems that are actually at level (political/tech) to challange THE PLAN going forward. Leave out the dozen RF seed systems, they should be nominally "small" enough to not get hit in a strike on the primary systems of Haven, Manticore, Grayson, Aldermani Empire, Erwhon, and 5 major SL systems plus Sol.


There are more than "hints" out there. The SL even acknowledges that "someone" with tech beyond anybody they know of , INCLUDING Manticore, hit at least the Manticore system. It wasn't Haven. NOBODY is taking responsibilty for it. While they might not even recognize Grayson as a "player" in the Haven/Manticore war (big mistake on the SL's part) the must know that Grayson was also hit by the same type of weapons and tactics as Manticore.

Just how many militaries, scattered though human space and getting report or have observers on what has been happening out in the Haven Quadrant have to be hit between the eyes with a 2x4 before it sinks in that SOMEBODY is playing with some really new stuff and it isn't anybody that anybody knows of and that really smells.

Sure, Manticore and Haven have broadcast this Alignment theory which is being ridiculed by the Mandarin's and the tame Solly press. But if EVERYBODY who is fighting ANYBODY now or in the last five years has not either been hit by nor used these weapons and stealth ability, it would seem that there is a NEW PLAYER out there with massive resources and tech that nobody- so far- can detect until they are struck.

It has got to make someone wonder. They can't all be as thick as Solly Admirals or the Sr. League bureaucracy.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by Louis R   » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:31 pm

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The RF attempting to become a huge entity is going to trigger alarm bells long before they get there - that's exactly what the Harrington Doctrine aims to prevent. Given that proper execution of the Doctrine will short-circuit much of the chaos that would justify growth, the Alignment will probably have to either subvert it or ignore the results if they want to exert direct control via the RF. The former _would_ have been feasible a couple of years earlier, but there are some very canny, and suspicious, folks out there who now know that there are 2s to be added together. The latter, of course, invites a "Why?" from those same canny suspicious types.

Weird Harold wrote:
Roguevictory wrote:Yeah unless the GA completely abandons the Harrington plan or the RF worlds do incredibly stupid things like attack the GA directly the GA can't attack them.


Actually, part of the Harrington Doctrine will eventually bring the RF and GA into direct conflict -- bi-lateral mutual defense treaties.

The RF is intended to eventually replace the Solarian League with a single, universal human government; by offering "safety in numbers" to entice voluntary joining at first, but becoming conquistador as voluntary participation drops off. Eventually, the RF is going to be "OFS on Steroids" and come into conflict with some system that has a treaty with the GA or the GA directly. The RF is going to be a huge entity by the time it does confront the GA (or whatever the GA evolves into).

Like the Cold War, the conflict is going to be a lot of little brush-fire wars for a long time before it becomes a universal war.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by darrell   » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:07 pm

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Louis R wrote:The RF attempting to become a huge entity is going to trigger alarm bells long before they get there - that's exactly what the Harrington Doctrine aims to prevent. Given that proper execution of the Doctrine will short-circuit much of the chaos that would justify growth, the Alignment will probably have to either subvert it or ignore the results if they want to exert direct control via the RF. The former _would_ have been feasible a couple of years earlier, but there are some very canny, and suspicious, folks out there who now know that there are 2s to be added together. The latter, of course, invites a "Why?" from those same canny suspicious types.

Weird Harold wrote:Actually, part of the Harrington Doctrine will eventually bring the RF and GA into direct conflict -- bi-lateral mutual defense treaties.

The RF is intended to eventually replace the Solarian League with a single, universal human government; by offering "safety in numbers" to entice voluntary joining at first, but becoming conquistador as voluntary participation drops off. Eventually, the RF is going to be "OFS on Steroids" and come into conflict with some system that has a treaty with the GA or the GA directly. The RF is going to be a huge entity by the time it does confront the GA (or whatever the GA evolves into).

Like the Cold War, the conflict is going to be a lot of little brush-fire wars for a long time before it becomes a universal war.


from what I understand, the current plan is for the current RF members to ban togeather to form a """new human league""" (for lack of a better term) that replaces the SL.

The only hope for the MA is for the the RF to not combine, and instead of the NHL as one entity have 12 small interstellar governments.

However, the NHL has been part of the MA plan for centuries, so I don't think detweiler can see that that portion needs to be changed, which will bring the RF into conflist with the GA.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by Louis R   » Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:32 pm

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Quite so. The Detweilers, Ben and Colin in particular, might be more flexible than that, but if they aren't the RF will almost certainly run into problems well before it hits the 'huge entity' mark.

I think. We have to keep in mind that we actually know very little more about the Plan than Anton and Victor do, so we could be barking up the wrong picketwood here. The wrong part of the picketwood, anyway. The real purpose of the RF might be closer to the role that Mesa currently fills: launching board, scapegoat and stalking horse. I wouldn't think so from what we have seen, but neither can I exclude the possibility given just how focused and ruthless the centre of the onion actually is. Equally, it's meant to be just what we think, but we're underestimating the time-scale this was all meant to happen on.

PS: Actually, now that I think about it, we may know less than A&V do: we haven't gotten a look at a lot of what Jack and Herlander told them, never mind what Jack may have hinted at.

darrell wrote:
Louis R wrote:The RF attempting to become a huge entity is going to trigger alarm bells long before they get there - that's exactly what the Harrington Doctrine aims to prevent. Given that proper execution of the Doctrine will short-circuit much of the chaos that would justify growth, the Alignment will probably have to either subvert it or ignore the results if they want to exert direct control via the RF. The former _would_ have been feasible a couple of years earlier, but there are some very canny, and suspicious, folks out there who now know that there are 2s to be added together. The latter, of course, invites a "Why?" from those same canny suspicious types.



from what I understand, the current plan is for the current RF members to ban togeather to form a """new human league""" (for lack of a better term) that replaces the SL.

The only hope for the MA is for the the RF to not combine, and instead of the NHL as one entity have 12 small interstellar governments.

However, the NHL has been part of the MA plan for centuries, so I don't think detweiler can see that that portion needs to be changed, which will bring the RF into conflist with the GA.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:29 pm

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The leadership of the RF know what the plan is for the eventual formation of the RF but how wide that knowlege is within each of the RF seed systems in not yet known to us. We clearly have Mannheim with Alpha involved and in the know in the military as we have been shown the conversatons with the Commander of the fleet at that star system with the "undiscovered" worm hole and there is that 8 ship detachment of BCs rotating though point blank coverage of the other end of the wormhole from Torch.

It seems to appear that the seed systems are supposed to gather in, by means of forming alliances of systems already friendly with them or who find themselves menaced by other systems looking to swallow them as the SL breanks up, relativly small groups of systems who are getting together for mutual defense. That is supposed to provide small enclaves of systems who become relatively stable and secure vs the chaos that is expected in the fall of the SL.

It is not, however, the military end that is important to the Alignment plan beyond providing that security. Each of the seed systems should already be deeply influenced by the Alignment views on humanity and the Detweiler View of the improvement of humanity. All carefully camoflaged and tweeted so that it probably looks like home-grown positions on health care, education, social programs, cultural history and traditions. Along with the military protection most (though perhaps not all) of the RF seeds can bring to each of their new alliance partners, they will inoculating them with the basics of the Alignment objectives. The "education" of the populations to develop the proper mindset and acceptence of underlying Alignment philosophy isn't going to happen overnight. It will take years and years and years. It if just cascades out into the open with, say 5 years, of each of these little mutual aid leagues developing, that would probably trigger some serious interest by places like Beowulf, Manticore and many of Beowulf's daughter colonies (presuming they survive the League's fall.
By the time more than a few of the people on any of the members of these new clusters of allied systems notice what is happening (outside of those who know because they are part of the Plan and at some level the local Alighment cadre), probably a generation of younger and middle management layers of people will have been "educated" and molded into the proper mindsets and theories and the "systems" of each planet will be self replicating the Alignment's programs in the Export version.

The RF in actual public existence if probably a long time off. It will take time to get the proper cultivation of the populations of each wave of systems being brought into the several growing alliances of systems. It is not like the 12 intial systems are going to bring in a dozen new systems every five years and keep at it for 20 years before they are going to start coalescing from the seed groupings to one neat package of the RF all tied together in 20 years with educational, medical and administrative clones of the Alignment basic networks. Too many things have to change on each system and you have to get the populations to want to or at least go along with the "improvements" and changes with out too much fuss. Kind of tough to build all these dozen little alliances if the seed systems do it by shaking hands on mutual defence pacts one day and a week later subjugating the plantiary populations. Draws way too much attention.

So the RF as the RF is - or at least was supposed to be- perhaps 100 years out after the whole painfull but glorious crusade of rebuilding a civilized, safe, progressive and strong successor to the Old League.....cue the grand music as the sheep work happily for the greater good of the RF and the Alignment plays the strings from behind the curtain and occasionaly rains the Fire Of The Gods down on people who stray.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by JohnRoth   » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:20 am

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Brigade XO wrote:
...

The RF in actual public existence if probably a long time off. It will take time to get the proper cultivation of the populations of each wave of systems being brought into the several growing alliances of systems. It is not like the 12 intial systems are going to bring in a dozen new systems every five years and keep at it for 20 years before they are going to start coalescing from the seed groupings to one neat package of the RF all tied together in 20 years with educational, medical and administrative clones of the Alignment basic networks. Too many things have to change on each system and you have to get the populations to want to or at least go along with the "improvements" and changes with out too much fuss. Kind of tough to build all these dozen little alliances if the seed systems do it by shaking hands on mutual defence pacts one day and a week later subjugating the plantiary populations. Draws way too much attention.

So the RF as the RF is - or at least was supposed to be- perhaps 100 years out after the whole painfull but glorious crusade of rebuilding a civilized, safe, progressive and strong successor to the Old League.....cue the grand music as the sheep work happily for the greater good of the RF and the Alignment plays the strings from behind the curtain and occasionaly rains the Fire Of The Gods down on people who stray.


Mission of Honor Chapter 41 wrote:"Frankly, it seems most likely to us from our sources in Old Chicago that if, in fact, Filareta gets himself as thoroughly smashed as Crandall did, the follow-up wave Rajampet is currently planning will get put on indefinite hold. There has to be a limit to how many superdreadnoughts even the SLN is willing to pour down a rat hole, after all.
"Even if that happens, however, we have . . . arrangements in place to see to it that at least a dozen members of of the Assembly will demand explanations. There's even a possibility—which, to be honest, I find particularly delicious—that Beowulf will be leading the pack. At the same time, we'll be sending the execute order to our first wave of 'spontaneous uprisings' against Frontier Security and its tyrannical ways. When that happens, it will be time for the Factor to come out into the open."
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:39 am

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Reread Torch of Freedom... just coz'... and I have my own theory now, which is that the Mannerheim SDF and Darius have to get whacked before RFC can conclude the series. The MAN naval officer who was with the PNE that attacked Torch felt like they could tear the A$$ off any other Navy in space, EXCEPT Haven and Manticore, likely they're lumping the IAN and the GSN in as well.

Zilwicki or Cachat also mentioned that Beowulf was likely to go from quiet tiger to "rip Mesa a new one" before the MAlign bugged out. We do know that the manipulated plan is for the SL to take out Beowulf near term, which would have negated Beowulf vs. Mannerheim and Darius had Haven and Manticore slagged each other back to 3rd tier status like Detweiler hoped.

So I think the RF goes the way of the dodo bird when Manticore blows those two space navy forces all to heck. I was going to say "and lets the Treecats eat the Malign" but likely the little furballs have better sense than that so "lets the treecats feed said Detweilers to the heart of a star or a hungry clan of Hexapumas."
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