Javelin/Cataphract

Bleck, misplaced column A and B...

Javelin performance at half power settings:

a = 467.65
t = 180

Resulting in terminal performance at first stage burnout:

v = 84,177
d = 7,575,930

Sprint drive:

a = 961
t = 75

Resulting in terminal performance at sprint drive burnout:

v = 156,252 kps
d = (7,575,930) + (84,177 * 75) + (0.5 * 961 * 75^2)
d = 16,592,017.5 km

Edit: Beaten to the punch by the source. Didn't see Duckk had posted until after I finished digging up my spreadsheet and composing the post.

Relax wrote:In either case, do we truly believe that the SLN has CM's with 150,000g for 75s??? When the Manties and Havenites barely had half that range in the late 1st war?

So, IF DW didn't screw up by the numbers; in the next book we should see, the manties taking SLN CM's and placing Manty sensors on them as they are superior to their own...

I think you slipped up somewhere.

The numbers Duckk posted quite a while back, that check out in my missile spreadsheet, for the Cataphract are: “Cataphracts go 467 KPS^2 for 180 seconds, then 961 for 75”

So (rounding off to an even hundreds of Gs) the Javelin is 180s @ 47600g = 7,556,976 km range, and 83,966 km/s velocity.
Then the CM 2nd stage does 75s @ 98,000g = 2,701,125 km range.

That appears to come up short of the stated range, since adding those 2 ranges results in only 10,258,101 km. But that 2nd stage range is actually range from rest. But the missile had an initial velocity from the 1st stage; which over the 75 seconds of the CM stage contributed another 6,297,480 km; bringing the combined range up to 16,555,581 km.


Still, having a 75s endurance CM drive is impressive and surprising; as I've noted here before. Manticore didn't even have that until partway through the 2nd war with Haven (with the Mark 31s; the older Mark 30s, used as late as the breaking of the ceasefire at Sidemore, were 60s endurance CMs).
Though the top accel of the SLN CM is lagging; 98,000g compared to the 130,000g the Mk30 and 31s can do.

What would the range be if the Manty missiles were used? ERM and Mk31 or Viper.

Erm from rest is 15 Gigametres? plus 3.2Gm from the Mk31/Viper. plus whatever the ERM Speed adds.

Also the CM warhead of the Cataphract has how many laser heads? Is it better than the single laser head of the Viper? Isn't it the same size of warhead?

Wouldn't a two or three Stage CM stages only offer as long or longer range and make it much faster?

Lord Skimper wrote:What would the range be if the Manty missiles were used? ERM and Mk31 or Viper.

Why would anyone bother?

Manticore can build true Multi-Drive Missiles which will fit in on-board missile tubes with full-sized warheads. So can Haven. Since the IAN SD(p)s have been refitted with KHII and Apollo, they probably can too.

Anyone with access to Manticoran missiles can build better missiles than Rube Goldberg multi-stage work-around known as Cataphracts.

Weird Harold wrote:

Lord Skimper wrote:What would the range be if the Manty missiles were used? ERM and Mk31 or Viper.

Why would anyone bother?

Manticore can build true Multi-Drive Missiles which will fit in on-board missile tubes with full-sized warheads. So can Haven. Since the IAN SD(p)s have been refitted with KHII and Apollo, they probably can too.

Anyone with access to Manticoran missiles can build better missiles than Rube Goldberg multi-stage work-around known as Cataphracts.

and an even better answer, the ERM has more range than the cataphract.

an ERM at 4.5 minutes and 46Kg's (16.5Mkm) mated with a manty CM (75 seconds 130KG's) has 16.5+9.1+3.6=29.2Mkm

Like wierd harold said, why would anyone bother? The Mk-16 DDM has the same range as the Mk-16 and is superior to the cataphrct B. (SD missile)

In A RISING THUNDER, it is stated that current generation SLN CM's have 1.8Mkm range. Equates to: 100,000g @60s. Book after ToF.

Cataphracts to make the numbers work use a 75s duration "CM" drive. Either a) the SLN was designing a new CM,
b) Technodyne was designing a new CM, or c) the MALIGN was designing a better CM. I will go with c) and maybe a dose of b) who might have done so for the MALIGN. I would postulate that the SLN does not have a 75s CM drive.

On another note:

It is rather odd that a CM drive can magically house a DD grade laser warhead, a Cruiser weight warhead and a capital grade warhead without changing its drive... Looking at drawings of a missile it would appear that ~1/2-2/3's of the volume(mass) of a missile is its warhead on an MK-16 drawing. That would equate to roughly 55tons(equivalent to Capital grade laser head) and yet it is still a CM drive in SLN parlance??? In fact, one would have to argue that the Capital grade SLN warhead would be larger as they do not have the grav tech 2X+ multiplication factor of the MK-16G.

Really a CM drive moving a 50+ton warhead? It would make far more sense for the drive to change on the larger missile to the point where it is just a full power Javelin drive to MOTIVATE said 50+ ton warhead, but due to size constraints cannot fit more capacitors on the missile. Of course a Javelin can only attain its high rate of acceleration for 60s... not 75s...

Does this mean that the MALIGN should have a SDM equal to that of the MK-17? or a DDM better than that of the MK-16 in regards to range of continuous power drive time.

So, according to Cataphract logic, Vipers should be carrying Capital grade laser heads... Making LAC's the ultimate offensive weapon system. Fire from stealth and return into stealth without ever being fired upon... Somehow if this were true, there should be a massive rearmament program for all LAC's changing out missile tubes for the slightly larger size.

Relax wrote:In A RISING THUNDER, it is stated that current generation SLN CM's have 1.8Mkm range. Equates to: 100,000g @60s. Book after ToF.

Cataphracts to make the numbers work use a 75s duration "CM" drive. Either a) the SLN was designing a new CM,
b) Technodyne was designing a new CM, or c) the MALIGN was designing a better CM. I will go with c) and maybe a dose of b) who might have done so for the MALIGN. I would postulate that the SLN does not have a 75s CM drive.

Or it's the same drive, just not in sprint mode.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Relax wrote:In A RISING THUNDER, it is stated that current generation SLN CM's have 1.8Mkm range. Equates to: 100,000g @60s. Book after ToF.

Cataphracts to make the numbers work use a 75s duration "CM" drive. Either a) the SLN was designing a new CM,
b) Technodyne was designing a new CM, or c) the MALIGN was designing a better CM. I will go with c) and maybe a dose of b) who might have done so for the MALIGN. I would postulate that the SLN does not have a 75s CM drive.

Or it's the same drive, just not in sprint mode.

Try again?

Relax wrote:On another note:

It is rather odd that a CM drive can magically house a DD grade laser warhead, a Cruiser weight warhead and a capital grade warhead without changing its drive... Looking at drawings of a missile it would appear that ~1/2-2/3's of the volume(mass) of a missile is its warhead on an MK-16 drawing. That would equate to roughly 55tons(equivalent to Capital grade laser head) and yet it is still a CM drive in SLN parlance??? In fact, one would have to argue that the Capital grade SLN warhead would be larger as they do not have the grav tech 2X+ multiplication factor of the MK-16G.

Really a CM drive moving a 50+ton warhead? It would make far more sense for the drive to change on the larger missile to the point where it is just a full power Javelin drive to MOTIVATE said 50+ ton warhead, but due to size constraints cannot fit more capacitors on the missile. Of course a Javelin can only attain its high rate of acceleration for 60s... not 75s...

For what it's worth Manticore's new 4-stage system defense Apollo's use a CM drive to (as far as I know) push an even larger package; the entire 4-drive Mk-23F with it's microfusion power plant and it's SD+ grade laserhead. Compared to that pushing a detached 2nd stage with an SD grade laserhead should be a snap.

So, despite the fact that I've also speculated about maximum sizes that CM drives can push, it looks like there may not be size limits on them. (Wish I'd thought of this counter example earlier, before making guesses that it shoots down).