long ranged CM

darrell wrote:The original CM's used in OBS would have a half power mode of 85kG's for 48 seconds, which would be 960,000KM or a full power mode of 170kG's for 16 seconds for 214kG's

No RMN counter-missile since OBS has had a half-speed capability.

Weird Harold wrote:

darrell wrote:The original CM's used in OBS would have a half power mode of 85kG's for 48 seconds, which would be 960,000KM or a full power mode of 170kG's for 16 seconds for 214kG's

No RMN counter-missile since OBS has had a half-speed capability.

how do you know???

almost without exception we are never told the distance, time or acceleration of a CM in books.

I cant't remember a time that a shipkiller missile is fired at anything other than half power in any book.

we know that the CM's in OBS were fired at lower power to give them a longer range, and with MDM's longer range becomes second to none, so I can see them all fired at half power.

for all we know, the newer CM's in order to get more acceleration and or longer duration may have locked out the full power setting.

darrell wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:No RMN counter-missile since OBS has had a half-speed capability.

how do you know???

The just in this thread, the references have been cited and or quoted, including "Word of Weber," several times.

Weird Harold wrote:

darrell wrote:quote="Weird Harold"
No RMN counter-missile since OBS has had a half-speed capability.
/quote

how do you know???

The just in this thread, the references have been cited and or quoted, including "Word of Weber," several times.

try again, how do you know? AFAIK, RFC hasn't said so. The CM's in OBS went out at 85K G's, had just under 1Mkm range which means that they were 60 seconds. With that being the lower powered section, 170kG's for 20 seconds would have been 333,000km range.

In this thread it and elsewhere we have the Mk-31 CM has 75 seconds endurance at 130kG's With the OBS station CM's having 170kG's the Mk-31 CM's acceleration is slower than the manticores prewar CM's, which dosen't make sense.

In this thread, there is nothing that says that that is the only acceleration for manticoran CM's. In this thread and elsewhere, there is multiple quotes that shipkillers have XXX seconds acceleration at YYY gravities, and without saying that there is another acceleration setting. For example, SL missiles have 180 seconds acceleration at 48,000 gravities.

260kG's for 25 seconds would be a range of 800,000KM which equals the distance covered in 36 seconds at 130kG's. Having two drive settings would be an advantage. The 130kG setting for the first interception, and the 260KG's for the second interception would provide a more accurate CM, both because it is more manuverable plus there will be fewer missiles in space so that the ship can spend more time directing it.

It is POSSIBLE that as a trade-off for the faster """50%""" drive setting (from 85kG's to 130kG's) they lost the """full power""" drive setting, but IMO it is likely that the full power 260kG's drive setting is still there, just hasn't been mentioned, just like the full power shipkiller missile accelerations are rarely mentioned or used.

darrell wrote:try again, how do you know? AFAIK, RFC hasn't said so. The CM's in OBS went out at 85K G's, had just under 1Mkm range which means that they were 60 seconds. With that being the lower powered section, 170kG's for 20 seconds would have been 333,000km range.

Sorry thought I'd actually included the quote from RFC saying so; but looks like I only referenced it.

Here is it, in a July 7, 2014 post from the thread 'Technical questions re military hardware'

runsforcelery wrote:The nodes of current generation Manty CMs have profited from the same general RMN R&D as brought us the Mk 14 shipkiller, the MDM and the improved beta nodes of the Shrike. That is, all of the nodes in question are tougher and have more endurance than their predecessors had, extending node life and/or power levels (but not both; endurance and power [i.e., accel] have always been a tradeoff), which explains the greater endurance of the Mk 31 and the Viper. CM missile nodes always have --- and still do --- burn out much more quickly than attack missile nodes built by the same technology, however, and the overpowered nature of their wedges mean that they can't be "stepped down" for extra endurance. Even at the most minimal level possible for the desired wedge strength, they are operating at too high a level to extend endurance significantly

(color emphasis added)

And the OBS CMs, which predate, and contradict, this still appear to have topped out at 90500g (not sure at the moment where I actually found that number; all the OBS itself seems to say is "over ninety thousand gravities"). There's no evidence that you could shorten their drive endurance further to get the 170kG you claim. (It might be possible to design a drive for 20s endurance at even higher accel; but given what RFC clearly said in 2014 you then wouldn't be able to dial it back for longer endurance - it would always be a 20s drive)


And probably the best other (admittedly indirect) evidence that you can't step down a CM's accel to get extra endurance is the Vipers. We're told their range is limited by their drive (around 3.5 million km), but if they could step down to 50% power like a shipkiller they'd have a 16 million km range and Katana's wouldn't have to enter the, SDM, missile range of the LACs they were coming to kill - yet we see that they do have to close to within that range before they can begin returning (very effective) fire)

kzt wrote:

SharkHunter wrote: But with "eight missiles clumped" it seems like a CM nuking itself in or around that small missile formation becomes a ver yke a high-value proposition. Question is, do the CM's have the ability to turn whatever remaining "range power" that they might have into a nuke starter.

Space is big. The missiles are in formation, but I doubt they are really that close together. And at the point where a CM is in range the control missile is pretty much all done.

Also the the incoming missiles have their wedges up, which means their rad shielding is online. I'm not sure that the little nuke you could cram into a Viper sized missile has a significant proximity kill range against a target with rad shielding inline; not when you need to shotgun the blast at fairly wide angles to try to target a 'cluster' of missiles. Adding a nuke to normal CM is probably a waste of resources of it can only kill missiles within, say 20 km. That's only 4x the standoff the CM wedge itself has; and probably far less than the separation between even a tightly clustered Apollo flock.

I'm not sure missiles actually do have rad screens. Early Manticoran MDMs suffered particle degradation on extended runs, which couldn't happen if they had screens. And late gen MDMs, not to mention the Oyster Bay missile pods, have shrouds that get jettisoned close to the target specifically to protect their delicate sensors... which is more evidence there aren't particle screens like ships have.

Pods have the "use em, or lose em", but missiles seem to have plot armor at times. Earlier in the series, the HMAMC Wayfarer lost dozens of missiles to missile fratricide when they blew the crap out of Kerebin. But the Havenite Triple Ripple, you're already using bigger and dirtier nukes than conventional shipkillers, and somehow detonating your first salvo without harming your second and third waves which are mere seconds behind, and probably flying directly through the nuclear fire to attack "from out of the fury of a star".

Somtaaw wrote:I'm not sure missiles actually do have rad screens. Early Manticoran MDMs suffered particle degradation on extended runs, which couldn't happen if they had screens. And late gen MDMs, not to mention the Oyster Bay missile pods, have shrouds that get jettisoned close to the target specifically to protect their delicate sensors... which is more evidence there aren't particle screens like ships have.

Pods have the "use em, or lose em", but missiles seem to have plot armor at times. Earlier in the series, the HMAMC Wayfarer lost dozens of missiles to missile fratricide when they blew the crap out of Kerebin. But the Havenite Triple Ripple, you're already using bigger and dirtier nukes than conventional shipkillers, and somehow detonating your first salvo without harming your second and third waves which are mere seconds behind, and probably flying directly through the nuclear fire to attack "from out of the fury of a star".

The shrouds are intended to protect during coast phases when the wedge and rad shields are not up.

Other than that I have to agree about the plot armor.

Somtaaw wrote:But the Havenite Triple Ripple, you're already using bigger and dirtier nukes than conventional shipkillers, and somehow detonating your first salvo without harming your second and third waves which are mere seconds behind, and probably flying directly through the nuclear fire to attack "from out of the fury of a star".

Considering that missiles use grav sensors, the triple ripple is roughly akin to laying smoke at night against radar directed gunnery. They won't even notice it. Plus nukes in space are just bright flashes, there is no fireball as that is the X-rays in the warhead acting on the atmosphere around the warhead.

kzt wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:But the Havenite Triple Ripple, you're already using bigger and dirtier nukes than conventional shipkillers, and somehow detonating your first salvo without harming your second and third waves which are mere seconds behind, and probably flying directly through the nuclear fire to attack "from out of the fury of a star".

Considering that missiles use grav sensors, the triple ripple is roughly akin to laying smoke at night against radar directed gunnery. They won't even notice it. Plus nukes in space are just bright flashes, there is no fireball as that is the X-rays in the warhead acting on the atmosphere around the warhead.

As I understand it the the Triple Ripple is primarily an anti-lac measure not anti-missile one.

Somtaaw wrote:I'm not sure missiles actually do have rad screens. Early Manticoran MDMs suffered particle degradation on extended runs, which couldn't happen if they had screens. And late gen MDMs, not to mention the Oyster Bay missile pods, have shrouds that get jettisoned close to the target specifically to protect their delicate sensors... which is more evidence there aren't particle screens like ships have.

Pods have the "use em, or lose em", but missiles seem to have plot armor at times. Earlier in the series, the HMAMC Wayfarer lost dozens of missiles to missile fratricide when they blew the crap out of Kerebin. But the Havenite Triple Ripple, you're already using bigger and dirtier nukes than conventional shipkillers, and somehow detonating your first salvo without harming your second and third waves which are mere seconds behind, and probably flying directly through the nuclear fire to attack "from out of the fury of a star".

Most missiles have particle screens. Details:

Storm From the Shadows, Chapter 13 wrote:The shroud-jettisoning maneuver had been programmed into the missiles before launch. Unlike any previous attack missile, the Mark 23s in an Apollo pod were fitted with protective shrouds intended to shield their sensors from the particle erosion of extended ballistic flight profiles at relativistic speeds. Most missiles didn't really need anything of the sort, since their impeller wedges incorporated particle screening. They were capable of maintaining a separate particle screen—briefly, at least—as long as they retained on-board power, even after the wedge went down, but that screening was far less efficient than a starship's particle screens. For the most part, that hadn't mattered, since any ballistic component of a "standard" attack profile was going to be brief, at best. But with Apollo, very long-range attacks, with lengthy ballistic components built into them, had suddenly become feasible. That capability, however, would be of limited usefulness if particle erosion had blinded the missiles before they ever got a chance to see their targets.

Boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.