long ranged CM

Lord Skimper wrote:How many laser heads does the cataphract have? If it is just a laser head on a CM why wouldn't a Viper have this many laser heads as well? Assuming it is more than one.

The Cataphract has the same number of lasing rods as a standard SLN Javelin of the next size down. In one single laserhead; laserhead = nuclear warhead and lasing rod assembly.

The Cataphract-C uses the SD-grade Javelin laserhead.


The Viper only has one lasing rod because it's a whole lot smaller, being about the same diameter as a MK 31 Countermissile, though presumably longer.

I just figured out why I enjoy hard SF so much. There aren't as many chances to do real engineering as I like, due to the cost of real R&D (and my retirement)! But discussions like this are almost as much fun.

And even without these discussions, it is enjoyable to think through possibilities on the basis of: If X will work (in this fiction verse), why not Y?

Jonathan_S wrote:Yep it says that in the first book. But then later RFC said that they can't be, it's a tradeoff to get their accel higher than a ship killer using the same tech level.

I don't know if he forgot he'd written otherwise in OBS, or decided to change his mind, or just mentally reconned it to an ability the more sluggish CMs used by the ancient CL Fearless used which had been eliminated in search of better acceleration in everyone's more modern designs...
(Fearless had CMs capable of 90500g, IIRC the CMs used for most of the first war were maybe 98,000g, and the current ones are 130,000g)

If it's a retcon, it hasn't made it into text (at least, not yet).

and since someone quoted him so I could see it... Skimper, CM's dont have ANY lasing rods. They don't even normally carry warheads at all, the counter missile's impeller wedge is it's one and only weapon.

It destroys missiles by physically ramming them, or at the very least coming close enough so the wedges collide, which even in a "worst case" for the owner of the missiles, can no longer maneuver, but MIGHT still be intact enough to detonate. But that's very unlikely, basically the entire missile "pulls a Tepes" and disintegrates after colliding with a CM wedge.

Somtaaw wrote:and since someone quoted him so I could see it... Skimper, CM's dont have ANY lasing rods. They don't even normally carry warheads at all, the counter missile's impeller wedge is it's one and only weapon.

It destroys missiles by physically ramming them, or at the very least coming close enough so the wedges collide, which even in a "worst case" for the owner of the missiles, can no longer maneuver, but MIGHT still be intact enough to detonate. But that's very unlikely, basically the entire missile "pulls a Tepes" and disintegrates after colliding with a CM wedge.

More specifically, the CM wedge is actually more powerful than that of an attack missile (that's why they can get so much accel out of them, and why the run time is so short). Basically, a CM wedge does to an attack missile what Honor did to the courier boat's nodes in OBS, only much more catastrophically - as in, the nodes go kaboom with enough energy to destroy the missile.

AFAIK, the Viper is the only CM that has a warhead and laserhead.

MaxxQ wrote:AFAIK, the Viper is the only CM that has a warhead and laserhead.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the Viper is the only missile that can double as a CM? Admittedly, it's basic "missile" design is based on the CM package, but it was designed to be a shipkiller first, CM second.

Somtaaw wrote:and since someone quoted him so I could see it... Skimper, CM's dont have ANY lasing rods. They don't even normally carry warheads at all, the counter missile's impeller wedge is it's one and only weapon.

It destroys missiles by physically ramming them, or at the very least coming close enough so the wedges collide, which even in a "worst case" for the owner of the missiles, can no longer maneuver, but MIGHT still be intact enough to detonate. But that's very unlikely, basically the entire missile "pulls a Tepes" and disintegrates after colliding with a CM wedge.

I presumed he was referring to the second stage of the Cataphracts, with a standard laserhead and a CM-type drive. And if you could do that, why not "upgun" the Viper laserhead in a similar manner.


Vipers could presumably benefit from the same sort of upgrades that are involved in the Mod G for the Mark 16, presupposing that the Viper wasn't originally designed with them. So could the Mark 23 and Mark 25.
But adding more lasing rods? No. Using a bigger warhead, maybe.

Somtaaw wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:AFAIK, the Viper is the only CM that has a warhead and laserhead.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the Viper is the only missile that can double as a CM? Admittedly, it's basic "missile" design is based on the CM package, but it was designed to be a shipkiller first, CM second.

Even that reword is technically incorrect. A Viper is the most effective attack missile to use as a CM (which makes sense as it was explicitly designed to be multi-mode so Katanas could simplify their magazines by not needing to carry any dedicated CMs)
But any anti ship missile could be used as a CM, though they're hardly optimized for the job. Their sensors aren't optimized for it, the fire control computers behind the dedicated anti-ship missile control links likely aren't optimized for host scenrio either, and their accel even at 100% power is lower than a CM/Viper; which makes their 100% power range shorter and their ability to maneuver to intercept a bit less. (Plus of course it's usually a waste of a big complex a and more expensive offensive missile to use it as an ersatz CM)
But a wedge to wedge contact between them and an inbound attack missile is just as effective as a CM. so there might be some situation where you're so screwed that returning fire is pointless when you might try to use them to survive long enough to escape...

Kytheros wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:and since someone quoted him so I could see it... Skimper, CM's dont have ANY lasing rods. They don't even normally carry warheads at all, the counter missile's impeller wedge is it's one and only weapon.

It destroys missiles by physically ramming them, or at the very least coming close enough so the wedges collide, which even in a "worst case" for the owner of the missiles, can no longer maneuver, but MIGHT still be intact enough to detonate. But that's very unlikely, basically the entire missile "pulls a Tepes" and disintegrates after colliding with a CM wedge.

I presumed he was referring to the second stage of the Cataphracts, with a standard laserhead and a CM-type drive. And if you could do that, why not "upgun" the Viper laserhead in a similar manner.


Vipers could presumably benefit from the same sort of upgrades that are involved in the Mod G for the Mark 16, presupposing that the Viper wasn't originally designed with them. So could the Mark 23 and Mark 25.
But adding more lasing rods? No. Using a bigger warhead, maybe.

Vipers are the best missile that can be engineered into a small package that is roughly 1/4 the size of a shrike or DD missile. The viper warhead is basically just big enough to kill another LAC, in as small a package as possible. In order to upgrade the warhead, it would have to be much bigger, at least 50% the size of a DD shipkiller.

The catapharact A has a DD missile drive, a CM drive, and a DD power warhead, and is 50% bigger than a standard DD missile, about the size of a BC missile.

The catapharact B has a BC missile drive, a CM drive, and a BC power warhead, and is 50% bigger than a standard BC missile, about the size of a SD missile.

The catapharact C has a SD missile drive, a CM drive, and a SD power warhead, and is 50% bigger than a standard SD missile, and can only be launched from pods.

This is probably a silly idea, but I'll float it anyway. I'm thinking of times when unsuspecting enemies have found themselves talking direct to Honor although light-minutes away, thanks to undetectable drones with FTL relay communication. Do we know how big a drone can be concealed under stealth to the standard of those ones? Would it be possible to fit stealthed drones to carry CMs as well as FTL? If it would, imagine the results of an order to fire that saw the Solarian ship-killers destroyed close to the launching ships.
Cheers
John