SL MDM

darrell wrote:The second stage dosen't have to be the same size as a CM.

for example, A SUV and a panel van would use the same engine, power train and frame, but different chassis that are different sizes would be mounted to the frame.

And it doesn't have to even go that far. I am not aware of anywhere that says the cataphract uses a CM body or frame, just the drive. Just like they put the same engine into a UPS delivery truck that they do an SUV, the frames could be totally different.

If they use a combined fram for both drives, the next step would be to develop a full dual drive missile. The ring for one drive would be in the rear, the other in the front.

Yes, but someone found a chunk of the text that said that they did in fact build a completely new warhead and seeker just so it could fit on the CM. Because reasons.

kzt wrote:

darrell wrote:The second stage dosen't have to be the same size as a CM.

for example, A SUV and a panel van would use the same engine, power train and frame, but different chassis that are different sizes would be mounted to the frame.

And it doesn't have to even go that far. I am not aware of anywhere that says the cataphract uses a CM body or frame, just the drive. Just like they put the same engine into a UPS delivery truck that they do an SUV, the frames could be totally different.

If they use a combined fram for both drives, the next step would be to develop a full dual drive missile. The ring for one drive would be in the rear, the other in the front.

Yes, but someone found a chunk of the text that said that they did in fact build a completely new warhead and seeker just so it could fit on the CM. Because reasons.

Hmm, we know in ships acceleration is column dependent due to the compensator. Missiles have they're compensation built into their nodes somehow, but it might still be volume dependent. A CM drive might only be capable of its full accel below some maximum size (and if that size is smaller than a full shipkiller then maybe that's why the MAlign designed a new, smaller, warhead for the Cataohract.

Though maybe the reason is even simpler. They were designing something that could be squeezed into existing SDM missile tube; not just a super sized pod only missile. There are presumably physical limits on the size of a missile the existing magazines and handing equipment can handle. That may have sharply constrained how much they could extend the missile to graft on the 2nd stage...
Thiugh isn't the -C pod only? It wouldn't have those same limitations; yet we're not told (that I can remember) that it goes back to a full-up standard capital missile laserhead package..

Jonathan_S wrote:Though maybe the reason is even simpler. They were designing something that could be squeezed into existing SDM missile tube; not just a super sized pod only missile. There are presumably physical limits on the size of a missile the existing magazines and handing equipment can handle. That may have sharply constrained how much they could extend the missile to graft on the 2nd stage...
Thiugh isn't the -C pod only? It wouldn't have those same limitations; yet we're not told (that I can remember) that it goes back to a full-up standard capital missile laserhead package..

Except these missiles have a full sized missile as part of the package, a missile that has a fully debugged and well-tested warhead and seeker, a warhead that is far more effective than the warhead you can stuff on a CM. So why are they not using the original missile warhead? Having the warhead on the CM means all 3 missiles have the same seeker and warhead, so why the hell are there 3 different versions anyhow? None of this makes any sense.

The Rube Goldberg shipkiller missile made me smile.

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kzt wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Though maybe the reason is even simpler. They were designing something that could be squeezed into existing SDM missile tube; not just a super sized pod only missile. There are presumably physical limits on the size of a missile the existing magazines and handing equipment can handle. That may have sharply constrained how much they could extend the missile to graft on the 2nd stage...
Thiugh isn't the -C pod only? It wouldn't have those same limitations; yet we're not told (that I can remember) that it goes back to a full-up standard capital missile laserhead package..

Except these missiles have a full sized missile as part of the package, a missile that has a fully debugged and well-tested warhead and seeker, a warhead that is far more effective than the warhead you can stuff on a CM. So why are they not using the original missile warhead? Having the warhead on the CM means all 3 missiles have the same seeker and warhead, so why the hell are there 3 different versions anyhow? None of this makes any sense.

I don't have my ebooks handy but I though I recalled that the 3 had different warheads; each one grade down from the normal missile warhead to f the ship class. So the BC launched Cataphract-A carries a warhead off their CL missiles, the SD launched Cataphract-B used the warhead off theit BC missiles, and I'm not sure what the pod launched Cataphract-C warhead is.

Can't remember if they also had to reduce the number of lasing rods used...

So maybe we're back to my earlier thought; the CM drive can't handle the entire oversized missile (since the Cataphract actually appear to somoeretstr it's stages, not just fire up a new drive ring). Otherwise why accept the compromises in warhead weight and max powered range implicit in the CM second design. (Though CM second does give you a little more maneuverability in the terminal phase. That might help fool older dumber CM into a miss)

The Cataphract-C uses the SD-launched version of the Javelin's laserhead. And is too big for SLN SDs to fire out of tubes, leaving it pod-only ... unless the MAlign has ships designed to carry the Cataphract-C in tubes, but they're more likely to just use a pod-based design to get the Cataphract-C out.

Relax wrote:

kzt wrote:"="Jonathan_S"
Though as someone pointed out in another thread you actually get more range if you'd assembled the stages in reverse order. Though I'm not sure if their CM drive could have handled the entire Rube Goldberg lash up."

The whole design approach David describes is pretty absurd. It means you have to design and test a new seeker and new warhead designed to fit a CM, which means a lot less space for the components. Given that the main missile already had a well tested warhead and seeker it's like gold plating a toilet.

Uh, been paying attention lately? The Military buys gold plated toilets... minus the gold...

Is the expense so high because of the cost of stripping off the gold

Kytheros wrote:The Cataphract-C uses the SD-launched version of the Javelin's laserhead. And is too big for SLN SDs to fire out of tubes, leaving it pod-only ... unless the MAlign has ships designed to carry the Cataphract-C in tubes, but they're more likely to just use a pod-based design to get the Cataphract-C out.

The Javelin is a BC weight missile and was used in the Cataphract-B. Which is the variant that can be fired from SD tubes.

The other two missile weights were the DD-scale Spatha(Cataphract-A) and the SD-scale Trebuchet(Cataphract-C).

munroburton wrote:

Kytheros wrote:The Cataphract-C uses the SD-launched version of the Javelin's laserhead. And is too big for SLN SDs to fire out of tubes, leaving it pod-only ... unless the MAlign has ships designed to carry the Cataphract-C in tubes, but they're more likely to just use a pod-based design to get the Cataphract-C out.

The Javelin is a BC weight missile and was used in the Cataphract-B. Which is the variant that can be fired from SD tubes.

The other two missile weights were the DD-scale Spatha(Cataphract-A) and the SD-scale Trebuchet(Cataphract-C).

Whoops. Thanks for the correction.

Kytheros wrote:

munroburton wrote:The Javelin is a BC weight missile and was used in the Cataphract-B. Which is the variant that can be fired from SD tubes.

The other two missile weights were the DD-scale Spatha(Cataphract-A) and the SD-scale Trebuchet(Cataphract-C).

Whoops. Thanks for the correction.

and manticoran laser heads are more powerful than SL laserheads, the original Mk-16 is more powerful than tha javaalin, and as far as the Mk-16-G, quote SoF:

The Mark 16’s original fifteen-megaton warhead had been more destructive than any destroyer or light cruiser missile ever previously deployed, although dealing with battlecruiser armor—as Abigail Hearns had learned aboard HMS Hexapuma in the Monica System—had pushed it to its limits. But Tristram and her sisters were equipped with the Mod G version, with a forty-megaton warhead and improved gravity generators. That increased its effectiveness by a factor of over five . . . which made it more powerful than the brand-new Trebuchet capital ship missile the Solarian League Navy had just begun to deploy.