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long ranged CM

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Re: long ranged CM
Post by Duckk   » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:33 pm

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Except the Havenites weren't just blindly firing all their CMs to fill space with CM wedges. They still fundamentally aimed their CMs, they just accepted a level of premature telemetry cutoff, resulting in degraded accuracy, in order to set up for the next CM launch.
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Re: long ranged CM
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:39 pm

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Duckk wrote:Except the Havenites weren't just blindly firing all their CMs to fill space with CM wedges. They still fundamentally aimed their CMs, they just accepted a level of premature telemetry cutoff, resulting in degraded accuracy, in order to set up for the next CM launch.


True, I should have been slightly more clear. Republic post-Buttercup relied more on hip shots and mass, accepting lower accuracy in favor of getting more CMs into space. Manticoran had the intended goal, of trying to achieve, to paraphase the sniper joke, "one missile, one countermissile". Even Manticore can't achieve that, not for lack of trying, however the Republic is willing to accept something more like "1 missile, four countermissiles".

In contrast, the SLN ships would be something more like... "one missile, 30 countermissiles [and five thousand rounds of autocannon shells]"
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Re: long ranged CM
Post by saber964   » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:20 pm

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darrell wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:it doesn't matter if you use a little warhead which somehow is way better than a Viper. Why is the Viper so bad?


The viper is a single small lasing rod (2m) with a small grav lens and a small (5Meg) warhead.

A DD missile has six 3M lasing rods, a 15 meg warhead and a better grav lense. EACH lasing rod puts out a beam at least 5 times more powerful than the viper.

A BC missile has six 5M lasing rods, a 50 meg warhead and an even better grav lense. It is at last 5 times more powerful than a DD missile.

A SD missile has six 8M lasing rods, a 200 meg warhead and an excelent grav lense. It is at last 5 times more powerful than a BC missile.

For comparison, A SD missile would be equivalent to six 16" guns on a battleship, (400MM) a BC missile would be the equivalent of six 8" artillery shells (200MM) a DD missile would be the equivalent of six 4" artillery shells (105MM) and a viper that of a 2" shell (50MM)



Minor nit pick, a 16 inch shell is 406 mm, 8 in is 203 mm and 105 mm is 4.1 inch.
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Re: long ranged CM
Post by Relax   » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:14 pm

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saber964 wrote:Minor nit pick, a 16 inch shell is 406 mm, 8 in is 203 mm and 105 mm is 4.1 inch.

Since being an ass retentive seems to be in vogue :twisted:

Is that before or after the shell is fired... :lol:
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Re: long ranged CM
Post by saber964   » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:34 pm

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Relax wrote:
saber964 wrote:Minor nit pick, a 16 inch shell is 406 mm, 8 in is 203 mm and 105 mm is 4.1 inch.

Since being an ass retentive seems to be in vogue :twisted:

Is that before or after the shell is fired... :lol:


Those are the most common sizes and not really OCD. But if you want confusing the IJN rounded off millimetres e.g. 406 = 410 = 16.1 inches or 203 = 200 = 7.9 inches. It really confused western intelligence services for years.
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Re: long ranged CM
Post by MaxxQ   » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:44 pm

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darrell wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:it doesn't matter if you use a little warhead which somehow is way better than a Viper. Why is the Viper so bad?


The viper is a single small lasing rod (2m) with a small grav lens and a small (5Meg) warhead.

A DD missile has six 3M lasing rods, a 15 meg warhead and a better grav lense. EACH lasing rod puts out a beam at least 5 times more powerful than the viper.

A BC missile has six 5M lasing rods, a 50 meg warhead and an even better grav lense. It is at last 5 times more powerful than a DD missile.

A SD missile has six 8M lasing rods, a 200 meg warhead and an excelent grav lense. It is at last 5 times more powerful than a BC missile.

For comparison, A SD missile would be equivalent to six 16" guns on a battleship, (400MM) a BC missile would be the equivalent of six 8" artillery shells (200MM) a DD missile would be the equivalent of six 4" artillery shells (105MM) and a viper that of a 2" shell (50MM)


In the spirit of nitpicking, I have to do that here.

A Viper uses the same exact laserhead as a Mk-13 (what you refer to as a DD missile), and is 3m long. You are correct that a Mk-13 contains six laserheads.

The Mk-16 DDM (what I assume you're referring to when you say a BC missile) does indeed have six 5 meter laserheads.

The Mk-23 (SD-grade missile) has the exact same laserheads as the Mk-16 - 5m long - but has ten of them.

I refer you to here: http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/F ... -465723413

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/M ... -465724671

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/M ... -465724314

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/M ... -465724020

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/M ... -465723786

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/M ... -465723662
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Re: long ranged CM
Post by Lord Skimper   » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:03 am

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How many laser heads does the cataphract have? If it is just a laser head on a CM why wouldn't a Viper have this many laser heads as well? Assuming it is more than one.
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Re: long ranged CM
Post by Vince   » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:44 am

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darrell wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:Based upon the slower half power CM with longer range 6-6.4GM One can fire a set of CM's at the missile salvos coming in earlier and intercept them and fire the standard CM's for picking up the surviving missiles.



There is no such thing as half power for counter missiles. In order to make the missile as small as possible it has only one drive setting, 100%

CM's do have some capability to be fired at less than 100% of maximum acceleration. Exactly how much is not given in text:
On Basilisk Station, Chapter 30 wrote:Honor certainly hoped he would. The Q-ship's missiles were still burning out before they came in, but the engagement time between salvos was too short for Cardones to wait them out. He had to launch sooner, with poorer solutions and lower counter-missile accelerations to give him more time—and range—on their impeller wedges. The laser clusters began to fire as a handful of Sirius's shots got past his counter-missiles, and she looked up at the main visual display as incandescent bursts of brilliance pitted the starfield ahead of her. Unless she missed her guess about the warheads those missiles carried, she had to stop them at least twenty thousand kilometers short of her ship, and they looked frighteningly close.
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.
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Re: long ranged CM
Post by Annachie   » Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:01 am

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I can teally only see two times that box launching CM's could be used.
1 is the really long range shots that need to follow a predictable path due to that range (unlikely and unlikely to be better than normal anyway), and that short time between a ship loosing a close in radar and that blind spot being covered by a fellow ship, which is probably already part of fleet CM doctrine anyway.

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Re: long ranged CM
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:43 am

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Vince wrote:
darrell wrote:

There is no such thing as half power for counter missiles. In order to make the missile as small as possible it has only one drive setting, 100%

CM's do have some capability to be fired at less than 100% of maximum acceleration. Exactly how much is not given in text:
On Basilisk Station, Chapter 30 wrote:Honor certainly hoped he would. The Q-ship's missiles were still burning out before they came in, but the engagement time between salvos was too short for Cardones to wait them out. He had to launch sooner, with poorer solutions and lower counter-missile accelerations to give him more time—and range—on their impeller wedges. The laser clusters began to fire as a handful of Sirius's shots got past his counter-missiles, and she looked up at the main visual display as incandescent bursts of brilliance pitted the starfield ahead of her. Unless she missed her guess about the warheads those missiles carried, she had to stop them at least twenty thousand kilometers short of her ship, and they looked frighteningly close.
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.
Yep it says that in the first book. But then later RFC said that they can't be, it's a tradeoff to get their accel higher than a ship killer using the same tech level.

I don't know if he forgot he'd written otherwise in OBS, or decided to change his mind, or just mentally reconned it to an ability the more sluggish CMs used by the ancient CL Fearless used which had been eliminated in search of better acceleration in everyone's more modern designs...
(Fearless had CMs capable of 90500g, IIRC the CMs used for most of the first war were maybe 98,000g, and the current ones are 130,000g)
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