Being on the dole....

noblehunter wrote:To be more topical, the People's Republic is an example of how basic income can fail. I suggested on the Haven welfare thread that BLS was probably too high when it was implemented and instead of letting inflation correct the issue, they kept raising it instead. Inflation, as one would expect, kept scrambling up after it.

I'm disappointed about the Swiss rejecting the idea. We really need to see how it works in a first world economy with a sovereign currency. The US economy is too foundational to mess with and most of Europe doesn't have a sovereign currency anymore. Neither do states or provinces.

Otoh I've always found honorverse economics sketchy when talking about rebuilding after Oyster Bay. We know automation is huge. While there's going to be a fair amount of technical support work, eg fixing bots, there's not going to be a lot of ditch digging work on any planet with a decent technical base.

Heck, the official numbers of belters in the Manticore beta system is hundred million range. That's an insane amount of human capital and should mean a huge amount of trained spacers.

I think some of its genre. Honorverse is space opera of Hornblower at its roots. There's a tendency to replace islands with planets, and treat planets just like and island. Instead of a massive planet equal to our own.

Combine this with the need to relate to the character and culture. Space cyberpunk doesn't sell as well as having a crew of 5 on a massive battleship with robots doing the real work usually isn't relatable. Mil SF readers also either are vets or read historical works and so the readers have preset notions. Having very few manual labor jobs beyond the hobbist level seems odd to the reader. Most people not needing to work full time jobs seems odd to the reader. Having a 10 or 20 hour work week be normal seems odd to the reader despite it being fairly possible for technically advanced society.

feyhunde wrote:Otoh I've always found honorverse economics sketchy when talking about rebuilding after Oyster Bay. We know automation is huge. While there's going to be a fair amount of technical support work, eg fixing bots, there's not going to be a lot of ditch digging work on any planet with a decent technical base.

Heck, the official numbers of belters in the Manticore beta system is hundred million range. That's an insane amount of human capital and should mean a huge amount of trained spacers.

I think some of its genre. Honorverse is space opera of Hornblower at its roots. There's a tendency to replace islands with planets, and treat planets just like and island. Instead of a massive planet equal to our own.

Combine this with the need to relate to the character and culture. Space cyberpunk doesn't sell as well as having a crew of 5 on a massive battleship with robots doing the real work usually isn't relatable. Mil SF readers also either are vets or read historical works and so the readers have preset notions. Having very few manual labor jobs beyond the hobbist level seems odd to the reader. Most people not needing to work full time jobs seems odd to the reader. Having a 10 or 20 hour work week be normal seems odd to the reader despite it being fairly possible for technically advanced society.

All SF has to handwave something or it turns into a textbook on why reality sucks. How or if an interstellar economy would actually work is probably second only to thermodynamics and FTL for handwaving.

Fireflair wrote:A recent news article crossed my desk about Switzerland holding an official vote about a basic living stipend of ~$2500 to be given to every adult. Has anyone else seen this bit of news?

Now, it shows a 70% likelihood of failure at the voting block... I shudder to think what would happen if it passed.

So many things are wrong with this idea. Is it possible to do something like that and not have it go poorly? Or will the free market adjust to reflect this new income that people receive, raising the cost of living by a reflected amount?

Yes, it was featured on the BBC's Red Button service. According to an update it was defeated.

P.S. This is the same Switzerland that tried to buy some JAS 39 Gripens for their Air Force a few years ago & the plan was defeated by a referendum which forced them to spend the money elsewhere, mainly on hospitals & welfare if I remember rightly. I also notice that they have resurrected the attempt to purchase Gripens.

Rincewind wrote:Yes, it was featured on the BBC's Red Button service. According to an update it was defeated.

P.S. This is the same Switzerland that tried to buy some JAS 39 Gripens for their Air Force a few years ago & the plan was defeated by a referendum which forced them to spend the money elsewhere, mainly on hospitals & welfare if I remember rightly. I also notice that they have resurrected the attempt to purchase Gripens.

Yeah, that's the problem with direct democracy. The people actually get a say in what the government does, instead of letting those who "know better" run things.

Keith_w wrote:

Rincewind wrote:Yes, it was featured on the BBC's Red Button service. According to an update it was defeated.

P.S. This is the same Switzerland that tried to buy some JAS 39 Gripens for their Air Force a few years ago & the plan was defeated by a referendum which forced them to spend the money elsewhere, mainly on hospitals & welfare if I remember rightly. I also notice that they have resurrected the attempt to purchase Gripens.

Yeah, that's the problem with direct democracy. The people actually get a say in what the government does, instead of letting those who "know better" run things.

Yes, and the problem with the People having a direct say is that they are quite often ignorant, lazy or just short-sightedly concerned with their own immediate goals to see the bigger picture. The trouble with elected politicians is that they are quite often too focussed on getting elected or staying in power by pandering to public opinion. The most extreme case is Pannone et Circenses, which is what led to the growth of the Dolist state in Haven & the People's Republic.

I always remember a passage from Machiavelli where said that it is better for a Prince to be feared than loved. For if he were to be loved it would be by foolishly squandering his State's wealth in an attempt to win it whereas if he was feared he would be prudent & thus the State would be better served.

Rincewind wrote:I always remember a passage from Machiavelli where said that it is better for a Prince to be feared than loved. For if he were to be loved it would be by foolishly squandering his State's wealth in an attempt to win it whereas if he was feared he would be prudent & thus the State would be better served.

Should this be read as an endorsement of autocracy? Because I think it should.

JohnRoth wrote:As you say, there's quite a bit of discussion about it, especially the part that would eliminate a lot of the welfare bureaucracy. Here in Albuquerque we've got a heck of a homeless problem; a basic stipend would get most of these people off the street into relatively cheap housing and in a position where they could dress well enough to look for a job - which is pretty much impossible for someone living on the street and in homeless shelters.

However, this topic has nothing to do with the Honorverse; I'd suggest taking it to Free Range Topics.

Is this not the basic premise that set the Republic of Haven onto its "expansionist" trajectory?

Therefore VERY relevant to the Honorverse

chrisd wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:As you say, there's quite a bit of discussion about it, especially the part that would eliminate a lot of the welfare bureaucracy. Here in Albuquerque we've got a heck of a homeless problem; a basic stipend would get most of these people off the street into relatively cheap housing and in a position where they could dress well enough to look for a job - which is pretty much impossible for someone living on the street and in homeless shelters.

However, this topic has nothing to do with the Honorverse; I'd suggest taking it to Free Range Topics.

Is this not the basic premise that set the Republic of Haven onto its "expansionist" trajectory?

Therefore VERY relevant to the Honorverse

Haven's citizens were forced to quit their jobs in order to get the BLS. Minimum/citizen's income goes to everyone and everyone is free to increase that income further by getting a job or business.

munroburton wrote:Haven's citizens were forced to quit their jobs in order to get the BLS. Minimum/citizen's income goes to everyone and everyone is free to increase that income further by getting a job or business.

The other important difference is that when we talk about Basic Income today, it's in the context of trying to solve problems that either exist now, or are projected to exist in the future. Given what we know of the Haven system so far (and bear in mind that this may be invalidated when House of Lies comes out), the havenite BLS wasn't a reaction to a need but a reaction to overwhelming affluence.

The E wrote:
The other important difference is that when we talk about Basic Income today, it's in the context of trying to solve problems that either exist now, or are projected to exist in the future. Given what we know of the Haven system so far (and bear in mind that this may be invalidated when House of Lies comes out), the havenite BLS wasn't a reaction to a need but a reaction to overwhelming affluence.

That's exactly what the fools calling for this say. "How could such a rich nation blah, blah, blah"