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Fate of Hancock station?

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Re: Fate of Hancock station?
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:59 am

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Found a superb snippet from War of Honor about "repair" bases.


War of Honor, Chapter 26 wrote:Sidemore wasn't in the same league as Grayson, but Honor was honest enough to admit that that was at least partly because Sidemore had never been as important to Manticore as Grayson was. The Star Kingdom had pulled out all the stops to build Grayson into the industrial powerhouse it had become, and for all the crudity of its pre-Alliance tech base, Grayson had been aggressively dragging itself up by its own bootstraps for well over sixty years before Manticore ever arrived in its neighborhood.

-snip-

Which was also true for Sidemore. But Grayson had been seen as essential to Manticoran security; Sidemore had simply been a convenience. And so Sidemore hadn't received the same loan guarantees, or been the subject of the same investment incentives and tax breaks, or been the site of major shipyards, as Grayson had been. Which, in its way, made what the Sidemorians had achieved even more impressive, despite how modest it appeared in the shadow of Grayson's accomplishments.

Honor was delighted to see the unmistakable signs of a planet whose industrialization process had taken on a self-sustaining life of its own. There were freighters building in Sidemore orbit these days, not just the light warships of the Sidemore Navy, and the planetary president had already conducted Honor on a proud tour of the planet's new orbital resource extraction facilities and smelters. Those facilities had grown almost entirely out of the RMN's need for them to support the orbital repair yard it had built here to service its ships on Sidemore Station, but they'd become self-perpetuating since then. The Marsh System wasn't going to be posing any threats to the Manticoran balance of payments with Silesia any time soon, but Honor was delighted to see how shrewdly and successfully the planet was exploiting its new industrial power by expanding into the Silesian trade. Unless something very unfortunate happened—like a war which brought the Andermani navy rampaging through the system—Sidemore would be able to sustain its new prosperity and expand upon it even if Manticore withdrew from the region.



Bolded the key bits, but Sidemore/Marsh received at best a similar 'repair' yard as Hancock, but the presence of orbital smelters and the like (which I still believe Hancock also had), permits full-up construction of freighters. And if you can build a freighter, you can build a similar sized warship, the warship just has more parts and redundancy inside compared to the freighter.


Now the fate of Hancock, as long as its facilities weren't totally trashed, like Grendlesbane's were, than it should still exist and be capable of enabling ships to base from it, and even (slowly) constructing new ones. Mass production like what was done at the major yards of Hephaestus, Blackbird, Grendlesbane, etc are beyond Hancock's abilities but if supplied with enough workers it could be turned into another superyard within a few years.
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Re: Fate of Hancock station?
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:15 am

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Sidemore was ramping itself up for construction of new ships, not just to serve as a nodal fleet base location for Manticore. They took the initial advantage of becoming a fleet support base and bootstrapped the devil out of it. Once they had an ongoing Manticore presence there the next logical thing would have been other additional shipping if for no other reason than delivery of goods and personel by other than military transport. That they could also generate some initial export was only a plus.
So you get more traffic and you expand your capabilities from initialy do minor repairs to civilian shipping to major repairs and then to building civilian ships and being able to fabricate parts and equipment rather than be dependent on outside manufacturing. Eventually- as fast as possible- get contracts to start producing Manticoran parts under license for military ships and auxiliaries.

Hancock might not be able to new build warships but it would still have a lot of trained and experienced people. It also had at least the types of manufacturing that would let them custom build equipment AND they would have the testing capabilities to run diagnostic tests on parts and ships systems. That testing capacity- and the experience to operate it would help with the rebuild the Manticor industrial infrastructure. At the very least it provides operating examples of the equipment (with specs and manuals) along with people who know it in the sence of actual operations and refinements rather than book-learning about how it supposed to work.
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Re: Fate of Hancock station?
Post by darrell   » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:00 am

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Somtaaw wrote:Found a superb snippet from War of Honor about "repair" bases.


War of Honor, Chapter 26 wrote:Sidemore wasn't in the same league as Grayson, but Honor was honest enough to admit that that was at least partly because Sidemore had never been as important to Manticore as Grayson was. The Star Kingdom had pulled out all the stops to build Grayson into the industrial powerhouse it had become, and for all the crudity of its pre-Alliance tech base, Grayson had been aggressively dragging itself up by its own bootstraps for well over sixty years before Manticore ever arrived in its neighborhood.

-snip-

Which was also true for Sidemore. But Grayson had been seen as essential to Manticoran security; Sidemore had simply been a convenience. And so Sidemore hadn't received the same loan guarantees, or been the subject of the same investment incentives and tax breaks, or been the site of major shipyards, as Grayson had been. Which, in its way, made what the Sidemorians had achieved even more impressive, despite how modest it appeared in the shadow of Grayson's accomplishments.

Honor was delighted to see the unmistakable signs of a planet whose industrialization process had taken on a self-sustaining life of its own. There were freighters building in Sidemore orbit these days, not just the light warships of the Sidemore Navy, and the planetary president had already conducted Honor on a proud tour of the planet's new orbital resource extraction facilities and smelters. Those facilities had grown almost entirely out of the RMN's need for them to support the orbital repair yard it had built here to service its ships on Sidemore Station, but they'd become self-perpetuating since then. The Marsh System wasn't going to be posing any threats to the Manticoran balance of payments with Silesia any time soon, but Honor was delighted to see how shrewdly and successfully the planet was exploiting its new industrial power by expanding into the Silesian trade. Unless something very unfortunate happened—like a war which brought the Andermani navy rampaging through the system—Sidemore would be able to sustain its new prosperity and expand upon it even if Manticore withdrew from the region.



Bolded the key bits, but Sidemore/Marsh received at best a similar 'repair' yard as Hancock, but the presence of orbital smelters and the like (which I still believe Hancock also had), permits full-up construction of freighters. And if you can build a freighter, you can build a similar sized warship, the warship just has more parts and redundancy inside compared to the freighter.


Now the fate of Hancock, as long as its facilities weren't totally trashed, like Grendlesbane's were, than it should still exist and be capable of enabling ships to base from it, and even (slowly) constructing new ones. Mass production like what was done at the major yards of Hephaestus, Blackbird, Grendlesbane, etc are beyond Hancock's abilities but if supplied with enough workers it could be turned into another superyard within a few years.


Hancock and sidmore may have INITIALLY received similar repair yards from manticor, but that doesn't mean anything. Sidmore, not manticore built a shipyard to build merchant hulls "next door" there is no indication that citizens of the independent star system of Hancock have built a shipyard, though.

As far as resource extraction and shelters, again, manticore supplied a few facilities, the people of the independent star system of sidmore built most of them.

I presume that the resource extraction industries in hancock provide the raw materials for repairs, Iron and Steel for structural members, copper for wireing, material for armor, etc. These are the same type of facilty that was in the manticoran asteroid belts which were not destroyed.

There is no indication on how much of the merchant ships that sidmore builds on it's own and how much it buys from others: fusion plants, hyper generator, impeller nodes, etc.

More importantly, there is also no indication that hancock builds any of the above starship components, let alone things like missiles, lasers or grasers.
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Re: Fate of Hancock station?
Post by munroburton   » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:16 am

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Sidemore has Marsh, a planet full of people who are extremely motivated to build themselves defenses which prevents another Warnecke, however unlikely, from succeeding.

No such resource exists in Hancock. Any attempts to upgrade Hancock would entail diversions of resources from the Manticore system, Trevor's Star, Silesia or Talbott.

It's not out of the question that Hancock will continue to be maintained, as it's set up to work on legacy warships. If the RMN keeps those in commission for many years more, Hancock could be extremely useful if only to free up space for more modern vessels in their new facilities.

But wholesale expansion into a Grendelsbane-style yard is unlikely, for a multilude of reasons. First, Grendelsbane's destruction. Second, the area covered by Hancock is of low strategical value and Hancock itself is distant from anywhere of high value. Third, Trevor's Star is better positioned to build-up a spare yard without adding to the Star Empire's defensive obligations. Fourth, once rebuilt the Manticoran facilities will be extremely difficult to attack again - Hancock does not have a large sensor array and unless you replace the facilities there entirely(making building there at all futile; you could do it in Basilisk and save on freighter costs), they'll be as vulnerable to a successful OB-style strike as the original HMSSs were.
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Re: Fate of Hancock station?
Post by drothgery   » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:38 am

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kzt wrote:The US in 1965 had 1.3% in the military, and we didn't have only 0.2% of our population constituting the entirety of the industries that produced 90% of the GDP. Nor was the US in the mid 60s usually thought as a garrison state. So I say pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

It's worse than that. In the 1920s PD Honorverse, virtually the entire population of the Manticore system and the San Martin system are prolong recipients, and no prolong recipients are old enough to even be physically middle aged. Also, there is essentially no sexism in the Star Kingdom. So the armed forces probably won't hit young men anywhere near as disproportionately as they do in the real world, and even if they did, it would matter way less to the rest of the economy.
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Re: Fate of Hancock station?
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:04 am

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Bruno Behrends wrote:Hancock Station got stolen and carried off by a band of Javas who snuck in after nightfall and cut it to pieces when no one was looking.

Were they in their cups when did it?
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Re: Fate of Hancock station?
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:08 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
cthia wrote:
Though I can't ascertain whether the Havenites sought it for some inherent strategic purpose or because of its size.



The Peeps had this tendency to become obsessed with refighting engagements they had lost. How many times did they attack Grayson? At least four?
The purpose for taking out Hancock was because it was strategically located -- and the primary support station for RMN ships defending allies in Yorik, Alizon, etc. Given that Lester's merry minions kept smacking Zanzibar's facilities (which included building small combatants), taking out the repair base, capturing Manticoran tech, all those things are good strategic battle ideas.

Of course, having the Minotaur working up with all sorts of newfangled weapons and several SD's in system did not help the PN forces that ran into a hornet's nest where they were only expecting bees....
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Re: Fate of Hancock station?
Post by darrell   » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:13 pm

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drothgery wrote:
kzt wrote:The US in 1965 had 1.3% in the military, and we didn't have only 0.2% of our population constituting the entirety of the industries that produced 90% of the GDP. Nor was the US in the mid 60s usually thought as a garrison state. So I say pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

It's worse than that. In the 1920s PD Honorverse, virtually the entire population of the Manticore system and the San Martin system are prolong recipients, and no prolong recipients are old enough to even be physically middle aged. Also, there is essentially no sexism in the Star Kingdom. So the armed forces probably won't hit young men anywhere near as disproportionately as they do in the real world, and even if they did, it would matter way less to the rest of the economy.


Societies evolve, and what is important and takes up the majority of time for jobs changes with it.

120 years ago, in 1900 CE, the majority of people farmed.

70 years ago, in 1850 CE, the majority of people were in manufacturing.

20 years ago, at the turn of the millennium, the majority of people were in technology jobs.

Today I can see that technology is starting to loose it's grip, but I don't know what will replace it, I just know that something will, as there will never be a society where the majority of the people are idle.

On manticore, less than 1% is in manufacturing, 1-2% is in the military. I would guess 1-2% would be in farming, 1-2% would be in technology. Yes, that is only about 5% of manticores population. I don't know what the rest of the people are doing, but they are doing something, and whatever that something is it is likely to suffer if large numbers moved from that to the military.
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Re: Fate of Hancock station?
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:19 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Henry Brown wrote:
To me it seems like it had more than minor refit capabilities. As I alluded to, it replaced a fusion plant in what was (at the time) a state of the art BC. And I don't see why the RMN would not have continued to upgrade the facilities there. So my next question is, once the central yards in the home system got blown in the Oyster Bay sneak attack, why weren't the Hancock station facilities mentioned? Once Grendlesbane was blown, wasn't it one of the biggest fleet yards outside of Manticore?

I was using the terms the way the books appeared to. Repair is what they did when swapping Nike's fusion reactor. Refit is installing upgrades.

Hancock station could do pretty much any repair. It had a limited ability to upgrade (refit) ships compared to a real shipyard. And it basically never got upgraded to be able to handle construction.
Good points. Simply look at any Naval shipyard since, oh, the tall ships/Spanish Armada days, and you find many more places that are/were able to do significant repairs, and only a couple full yards. I like the fact that RFC kept that relation: the profound difference between plugging the holes and replacing things and laying down the "bones and armor" of a warship.
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Re: Fate of Hancock station?
Post by Dafmeister   » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:56 am

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Fox2! wrote:
cthia wrote:
Though I can't ascertain whether the Havenites sought it for some inherent strategic purpose or because of its size.



The Peeps had this tendency to become obsessed with refighting engagements they had lost. How many times did they attack Grayson? At least four?


Only two that I can think of (three, if you count their pre-war support for Masada) - Amos Parnell's attack at the outset of the the war, defeated by White Haven at Third Yeltsin, and Thiessman's attack during Dagger/Stalking Horse, defeated by Honor at Fourth Yeltsin. There may have been some off-screen raiding activity in the area, but those were the only times the PRH tried to conquer the system.
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