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Mission of Honor eARC - is Sandra Crandall's death missing?

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Re: Mission of Honor eARC - is Sandra Crandall's death missi
Post by Louis R   » Sun May 29, 2016 6:53 pm

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I'll have to look [heart-breaking, isn't it?].

I don't think that there's any textev, but it can be taken for granted that Oppenheimer wouldn't have survived the battle, for reasons the Detweilers have laid out for us. Filareta _couldn't_ be allowed to talk, the rest of his staff shouldn't be, in case he said something revealing when he realised his head was in a noose, and the way the launch was engineered meant that no forensic examination of the ship could be permitted.

They got away with it, more or less [some people are wondering about how voluntary Filareta's suicide was, but without any real evidence], but they took a hell of a chance. I can only assume that all this looked much less risky at the time it was set up. To be fair, it was 2-3 years before Apollo was deployed, and while the Alignment was still under deep cover, so the situation was rather different. Particularly in terms of the suspicions that would be aroused if it didn't all go off as planned. What would even the SLN say if there'd been exactly one SD severely damaged or destroyed?


munroburton wrote:
Louis R wrote:Hmmm... something that I completely forgot about: unlike Crandall, Filareta's survivors were dealt with entirely off-stage. Which means that we have no idea whether his flagship survived even remotely intact. It could well be that it was rigged to blow, and its destruction attributed to the missile fire it took. The natural assumption would be a golden BB, even if both sides records suggested that it hadn't actually been hit hard enough that it would blow up.

Still risky, even though it's a reasonable assumption that the Manties would shoot back under the circumstances.


IIRC, there is textev somewhere that SLNS Philip Oppenheimer(Filareta's flagship) was destroyed with all hands during the battle.

It's unclear whether there was a second component to the MAlign sabotage - they could have set one of the fusion reactors to blow as soon as enemy fire hit, for example.
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Re: Mission of Honor eARC - is Sandra Crandall's death missi
Post by JohnRoth   » Sun May 29, 2016 9:28 pm

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munroburton wrote:
Dauntless wrote:as RFC showed us the planting of the bomb on the flag bridge do you think he would have the reactors rigged to blow without telling us?

these little details are not the sort of thing he often leaves out


And yet he didn't show us Crandall's death.



There's a principle in writing fiction that, if a scene would show only what the reader assumes happened, it can be left out. Now, while that may not apply totally in the case of Admiral Crandall's death, showing who killed her creates a thread that he had no intention of following up on. Or maybe he did, and that sub-arc got cut during editing, leaving the mystery in place.

So. Let's speculate. Someone on the flag bridge killed her. Either that was a simple matter of getting rid of rubbish, or it was a prepared assassination. In the first place, any investigation will go nowhere. In the second, they will probably only find out someone who was far enough into Manpower's pocket that they would follow a Manpower "suggestion" that Crandall be assassinated.

There is textev somewhere that both Fillaretta and Crandall were slated for assassination before the whole Talbot Sector thing blew up, and then Detweiller and Co. decided they were still of use. So there was probably already an assassin on Crandall's flag deck all the time.

Storm from the Shadows, Chapter 10 wrote:"Good. In the meantime, though, what's your impression of Anisimovna and Bardasano's report?"
"I think Bardasano's probably put her finger on what happened," Benjamin said. He cocked an eyebrow at Collin, and his brother nodded.
"And whether she's right about what caused the operation to blow up is really beside the point," Benjamin continued, turning back to Albrecht. "We've lost Monica; Verrochio is going to pull in his horns, exactly as Anisimovna's predicted; the entire Technodyne connection's been shot right in the head, at least for now; and Manticore's accepted Pritchart's invitation. Leaving summit meetings aside for the moment, we're still going to have to rethink our entire approach to Talbott, at the very least. And we're going to have to find some other way to get through to those idiots in Battle Fleet."
"Well, Monica's not that big a loss," Albrecht observed. "It was never more than a cat's-paw in the first place, and I'm confident we can find another one of those if we need it. Having Verrochio go all gutless on us, now . . . That's more than a little irritating. Especially after all the investment we made in Crandall and Filareta."
"Why is that a problem, Father?" Daniel asked after a moment. Albrecht looked at him, and Daniel shrugged. "I know neither of them came cheap, but it's not as if we don't have fairly deep pockets."
"That's not the problem, Dan," Collin said before Albrecht could reply. "The problem is that now that we've used them, we're going to have to get rid of them."
Daniel looked at him for several seconds, then shook his head with a pursed-lip sigh.
"I know I'm only the family tech weenie, not an expert in covert ops like you and Benjamin," he said, "but usually I can at least follow your logic. This time, though, I don't really understand why we need to do that."
"Collin's right, Daniel," Albrecht said. "We can't afford to have either of them asking questions—or, even worse, shooting off his or her mouth and starting someone else asking questions." He snorted. "Both of them had the authority to choose their own training problems and deploy their squadrons where they wanted to for the exercises, so that's not a problem. But now that the entire Talbott operation's gone sour on us, we can't have anyone wondering—or, worse, actually asking—why both of them chose such obscure locations. Locations which just happened to move their task forces so close to Talbott and Manticore itself just when things were coming to a head at Monica . . . almost as if they knew something was going to happen ahead of time.
"Oh," he waved one hand, "it's unlikely anyone's even going to notice, much less ask questions. But unlikely isn't the same thing as impossible, and you know our policy about eliminating risks, however remote, whenever possible. Which means Crandall and Filareta are both going to have to suffer fatal accidents. Even if someone finds all of their hidden accounts, the money passed through enough cutouts no one will ever be able to tie it to us, but if they should happen to mention that Manpower suggested their exercise areas to them, it could start the damned Manties or Havenites asking questions of their own. Like how even Manpower could have the resources to put so many pieces into play simultaneously."
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Re: Mission of Honor eARC - is Sandra Crandall's death missi
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon May 30, 2016 3:02 pm

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munroburton wrote:Consider the effect of that evidence dropped onto Kolokeltsev's desk. And followed up by media and public release.


The Mandarins know the GA is right about the MAlign, they still feel they have to pursue the war because to back down would mean a wave of revolts and they still don't realize how utterly overwhelmed their fleet is.

Now, a public release is another matter but they would simply trot out the standard explanation--that the GA data is faked.
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Re: Mission of Honor eARC - is Sandra Crandall's death missi
Post by Rincewind   » Mon May 30, 2016 7:07 pm

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Louis R wrote:WRT the recorders, there's an unfounded assumption here: that she died within the area covered by the recorders. There's nothing in the text to indicate that that was the case. To me, the lack of witnesses suggests that it was not on the bridge, since the only way to hide there is to crawl under one of the consoles. I'd be rather surprised if her staff didn't take note of their admiral doing that, and at least mention it to someone. [Come to think of it, Crandall being described as a rather large person, she might have had trouble hiding under a console anyway.] It may be that the bridge was open to vacuum, but that's the only way they would have been unaware of any shots being fired. Not even StateSec recorded what was going on on every square metre of deck space.

One thing that is certain is that however she died, Crandall's passing was part of the Alignment's after-action tidying up - it was made very clear that she was not to be able to answer any questions about how she came to be where she was when she was. Ditto for Filareta, but in his case it was possible to arrange for an appropriate amount of bloodshed to accompany his exit. Although it occurs to me that unless the entire ship was blown up somebody was taking a huge chance on setting that bomb off on his flag bridge: there was no guarantee that the ship would take damage that would explain the destruction. And if you were going to blow the ship, why blow the bridge first?


With regards Filareta it was always intended to part of a situation whereby the Eleventh Fleet would be drawn into a situation where the Royal Manticoran Navy would fire upon it. Given that the MA already knew about the firepower available to the RMN: (& Grayson & Haven although they would not have featured in the MAs original plans) they knew that Eleventh Fleet would be annihilated & that flagships like Filareta's own would be targeted first. Remember the scenario that occurred was that Filareta's Operations officer would fire the pods in one salvo & then detonate the bomb thus triggering the RMN response.

As for blowing up the ship in its entirety there are two problems with this. In A Rising Thunder Honor discussed with Chien Lu the limitations (as she saw it) of the Nanotech that the MA was using. Whilst it could be used to do a simple act, blowing up a ship by overloading its reactors would have involved far more involved actions. Also it would be unlikely that they would be able to smuggle onboard a bomb big enough to completely destroy his flagship.

Finally, there is this point. If the pods had been launched & then Filareta's flagship had been immediately destroyed before the RMN had even opened fire even the most stupid SLN flag officer would have suspected something. Furthermore, although he was a Mesan stooge & had disgusting personal habits Filareta was not a fool. He was actually quite competent & his staff, unlike Crandall's, reflected this. It is likely that at least some if not most of his subordinate flag officers were equally competent. They would surely suspected a rat & quite possibly held their fire & even surrendered in time for Honor to destroy her own salvo. Also Honor had her Ghost Rider platforms practically on top of Filareta's ships & they would have detected it as well. She may well have still launched her counter strike immediately; (combat reflexes) but there would have been enough time to destroy her missiles once the true situation had been made aware to her by her remote platforms operators. By just destroying the flag bridge it left a hole in Eleventh Fleet's chain of command when the other flag officers were wondering what the hell was going on before opening fire themselves in response to Honor's counter launch. Also it presented a scenario to Honor where she saw a massive missile salvo launched & she reacted accordingly.
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Re: Mission of Honor eARC - is Sandra Crandall's death missi
Post by kzt   » Mon May 30, 2016 9:01 pm

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If you want to blow up the ship and have high-level access a minor code change to the reactor should accomplish this.
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Re: Mission of Honor eARC - is Sandra Crandall's death missi
Post by darrell   » Tue May 31, 2016 2:09 pm

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kzt wrote:If you want to blow up the ship and have high-level access a minor code change to the reactor should accomplish this.


As a certain havenite techo nerd would say, oops. :lol:
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Re: Mission of Honor eARC - is Sandra Crandall's death missi
Post by Rincewind   » Tue May 31, 2016 5:46 pm

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kzt wrote:If you want to blow up the ship and have high-level access a minor code change to the reactor should accomplish this.

No, that is NOT the case. As I stated, in A Rising Thunder Chapter Eighteen where Honor is talking to Chien Lu she explicitly referred to the problems & limitations that the Nanotech faced. The relevant passages are as follows:
A Rising Thunder
“McBryde said- I’ve seen the recording he provided to Captain Zilwicki, and I’ll see to it you get a copy, as well- that the nanotech has to be specifically engineered for its target. They have to get their hands on a sample of the target’s genetic material, then build the nannies around that material. If McBryde’s right about that, that’s almost certainly the primary reason no forensic examination has turned up any evidence of it. It breaks down almost instantly after completing its function, and it’s all tagged as a legitimate component of the target’s own body.
“McBryde either didn’t know or didn’t say exactly how sophisticated the nanotech’s ‘programming’ can be, but our best estimate based on what he did say is that it has to work something like transferred muscle memory.”
...
“Transferred muscle memory.” Honor repeated. “ONI consulted my father as one of the Star Empire’s leading neurosurgeons as soon as they started trying to evaluate McBryde’s claims.” She did not add that he had also been called in because of his personal connection with her and the monumentally high security clearances which went with it, but she really did not have to. “And I’ve discussed it personally with him. He doesn’t like the implications one bit, but he says it’s at least theoretically possible. In fact, he thinks there are probably some similarities between the way the nanotech works and the way this works.”
She held up her artificial left hand and flexed its fingers.
“When I was learning to handle this, I had to relearn all the muscle memory using the new neural connections- connections which were significantly different from the organic ones I’d always had. Apparently, if my dad’s right, what they do is to use a human…call her a ‘host,’ for want of a better word, to ‘train’ the nanotech pretty much the same way I trained my prosthesis and my own brain. Again, assuming he’s right, they can only train it to carry out limited and probably very specific physical actions. That doesn’t mean the physical actions can’t be complex, according to my dad, but that they can probably only put them together in specific combinations, and there’s a data storage limitation- probably a pretty severe one- on what they can actually pack into the nanotech. For example, I’ve viewed the bridge imagery of the day Tim was killed.”
...
“I’ve viewed the bridge imagery.” Her soprano was almost as clinical, as detached, as before when she went on once more. “And aside from drawing Simon’s pulser and opening fire, he never moved from the instant whatever was controlling him took over. He simply stood in one place, held the trigger down, and swept his fire across the bridge. Looking at the security imagery of the Havenite ambassador’s chauffeur shooting Admiral Webster, you see very much the same thing. He draws his weapon, he opens fire- hitting three other people, not just the Admiral- and simply stands there until he’s shot in turn. No attempt to escape, no effort to take cover or evade return fire, nothing. We haven’t had the opportunity to look at any imagery your security people may have of Colonel Hofschulte, so I can’t say how consistent that is in his case, but that’s the pattern we’re apparently seeing.
“Now, according once again to my dad, there has to be another component, some sort of organic AI, you might say. His best guess is that it probably sets up residence in some corner of the target’s brain, but it wouldn’t necessarily have to be located there as long as it has access to the central nervous system. Presumably the AI is issued with a set of triggering criteria that it looks for before activating whatever ‘muscle memory’ may have been installed in the nanotech. Obviously, the criteria can’t be too complex.”
...
“At any rate, if my dad’s right about this, the AI only triggers under very specific circumstances. In fact, they probably err on the side of not triggering when they set up the original programming, even when that means missing possible opportunities, in order to avoid the sorts of accidents which might have started someone wondering what the heck was going on. And the specific actions which can be triggered are only those which have been ‘muscle transferred’ to the target. So, assuming he’s right, this stuff couldn’t force someone to, say, enter a computer code that’s in his memory, not the nanotech’s. And it can’t access his knowledge or make his conscious brain do what it wants- force him to make up a lie in order to penetrate security, for example, or come up with his own plan for some assassination or act of sabotage. Daddy says it would probably be theoretically possible to…pre-record, let’s say, a lie, although he doesn’t know whether it would sound like the target’s voice or the voice of whoever provided the muscle memory to the nanotech. But it’s not like…oh, like hypnosis or adjustment. It couldn’t trick its victim into supplying the proper code word response to a challenge- or even force him to respond in the first place- unless whoever programmed it had the proper challenge ahead of time.”
“But if the programmer had the challenge, knew the computer code, he could cause the ‘target’ to enter it?” Rabenstrange asked, eyes narrow.
“Probably. Well, possibly, anyway.” Honor shrugged. “We’re shooting in the dark, Chien-lu. As you say, we’ve had more time to think about this and more complete information, but without the kind of specifics McBryde either never had or at least never gave us, all of this is theoretical.”
“Understood.” Rabenstrange leaned back in his armchair once more, right hand stroking Nimitz’ spine, and grimaced. “Understood, but it poses almost as many questions as it ‘theoretically’ answers, doesn’t it?”
“You might say that.” Honor smiled without a trace of amusement. “On the other hand, I personally think Dad’s onto something. If they could actually reach into someone’s mind and memories with this stuff, they wouldn’t need assassins. They could simply program people in key positions- like a prime minister or a president- to start doing whatever it was they wanted them to do. Or they could simply have targeted someone else on Imperator, someone besides Tim, who had access to a fusion reactor or a hyper generator or any of a dozen other critical systems I can think of right off hand. Someone who could have destroyed the entire ship, not just killed me. But getting anyone into a position to do any of that, to initiate the proper procedures, would have required access to information the programmer didn’t have and couldn’t build into the muscle memory transfer.”

As you can see there are explicit limitations on what the nanotech can do. It can be programmed to force the host to do some complex tasks but only what the programmer knows about. It cannot force the host to do something that relies on the host's own memory. Detonating the bomb that destroyed the flag bridge was easy; they had set up the bomb & the detonating sequence themselves so the nanotech could force Daniels to key in the sequence without too much trouble. With regards to Daniels triggering the missile salvo that also could be easily arranged. It was the sort of last ditch, gone to hell, hope never have to the damn thing contingency that all navies operations officers did as a matter of course, especially when going into battle. Whilst that was something that Daniels himself had set up it would have been relatively easy for the MA to have found out. As Alfredo Yu said in Chapter Twenty Four he could think of at least ways a Peep admiral could have found that information back in the bad old days. The relevant passage is;
“Why, Madam President? If you assume they could get to Filareta’s ops officer at all, why not set up something like this? Especially if there was some way for the people who programmed him to know or to guess how he’d go about setting up a gone-to-hell fire plan? Maybe they had access to recordings of simulations where he’d set up plans like that. For that matter, maybe they had someone else inside Filareta’s staff passing them that kind of information, probably with no idea at all what the Alignment meant to do with it. I can think of at least three ways, right off hand, a Peep flag officer back in the bad old days could’ve gotten that information about any operations or tactical officer in the People’s Navy anytime he’d wanted to, and the SLN’s at least as badly riddled by patronage and ‘favour buying’ as the Legislaturalists ever were. And if Filareta’s tac officer did have a pattern, did have a standard way of setting up for that kind of plan…”

The limitations of this were also pointed out when White Haven suggested that they could have launched three aimed salvoes with better targeting:
“Possibly,” White Haven agreed. “But that doesn’t change the fact that Filareta could have used the time Honor gave him to set up a sequenced, targeted, controlled launch, and he didn’t. Why not?”
“Because that would have required a series of actions?” Yu murmured, then nodded slowly. “They’d have to select the pods to be enabled. Then they’d have to choose the targets, feed the coordinates, enable at least the first salvo’s telemetry links, update their electronic warfare plan. It would have taken more than one man, and it would have taken a complex series of commands and keystrokes. Whereas...”

To reiterate, as you can see from the above passages the nanotech can only force the host to do something the programmer has knowledge of. It cannot force them to do something that relies on the host's own memory which the programmer does not know about. It was probably programmed to kick in only if Filareta ordered Eleventh Fleet to stand down & surrender.
And all of that does not even include my second point that Filareta's flagship blowing up immediately after firing off the massive salvo without any Manty fire would have been suspicious enough to penetrate even the densest Battle Fleet admiral's skull.
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Re: Mission of Honor eARC - is Sandra Crandall's death missi
Post by kzt   » Tue May 31, 2016 6:00 pm

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It would be petty easy to have it also activate a logic bomb that turns off the reactor containment in say 900 seconds. Which should be plenty of time for missiles to arrive.
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Re: Mission of Honor eARC - is Sandra Crandall's death missi
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Tue May 31, 2016 6:22 pm

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darrell wrote:
kzt wrote:If you want to blow up the ship and have high-level access a minor code change to the reactor should accomplish this.


As a certain havenite techo nerd would say, oops. :lol:

I suspect that SF didn't do a minor code change - allowing your reactors to be blown up easily strikes me as a recipe for disaster.
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Re: Mission of Honor eARC - is Sandra Crandall's death missi
Post by Rincewind   » Tue May 31, 2016 7:53 pm

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kzt wrote:It would be petty easy to have it also activate a logic bomb that turns off the reactor containment in say 900 seconds. Which should be plenty of time for missiles to arrive.


In which case the whole problem is turned on its head because Filareta would have time to warn both his own fleet & also Honor about what had just happened. Then, even if his ship was destroyed evidence would have come out of a nanotech attack, exactly the sort of thing Manticore had already warned the League about & what is more, it would be witnessed by at least some if not all of Eleventh Fleet.

If your idea is that, after firing off the salvo, Daniels detonated the bomb which destroyed the Flag Bridge & activated the logic bomb at the same time then it still falls down on practicalities. The switch that Daniels pressed was already set up & part of his console. The bomb was not but that was just a simple device wired into his station by PO Harder. How likely is it though that Harder would have been able to wire in a device that also contained a logic bomb? Remember, it would have to get through all the system safeguards designed to prevent such an attack. Also, Daniels was Filareta's Operations Officer & his station was on the Flag Bridge. There would be no earthly reason for there to be a connection between his station & the ship's systems, particularly the reactor systems: (unless you suggest that PO Harder increased her risk of getting caught by wiring in a connection that someone could quite likely have spotted).

There are serious practicalities working against the scenario you have described including the fact that the MA go out of their way to avoid leaving any traces & err on the side of caution. If that is the case then why mount an operation which increases the chance of discovery the more complicated you make it?
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