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Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory

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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by munroburton   » Mon May 30, 2016 5:31 am

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darrell wrote:In echo's of Honor, Grayson had 9 medusa SDP's in commission before manticore completed their first, so what makes you think that Grayson needed to buy CLAC's?


House of Steel?

Minotaur-class LAC Carrier
(for specification, see RMN Minotaur CLAC)
Number Purchased: 6
Serice Life: 1914–present

While the GSN was heavily involved in the original design of the Shrike-class LACs, they let the RMN take the lead on initial carrier design. A total of six Minotaur-class carriers were ordered from 1914–1915 PD while the Covington-class was still working up.


The GSN section is full of (for specification, see RMN X Y), for ships they acquired from Manticore.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by Kytheros   » Mon May 30, 2016 7:16 am

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JohnRoth wrote:To get back to the original topic: What happens to the RF if the Haven Sector is still a major interstellar power after the SL breaks up?

I think it depends on the astrography. We don't know where any of the 11 RF planets are, other than a strong suspicion that Visigoth is 60 ly on the other side of Beowulf from Earth.

If this is a relatively compact cluster, especially with the Streak Drive, then they'll become a multi-system polity, probably with 50 to 100 or maybe more systems. Pretty big as such things go, but there's going to be a lot of unconsolidated systems on the other side of Sol, especially with their position between the Haven Sector and the rest of the League.

If they're scattered all over the place, then they may not even manage to consolidate as a single star nation, but may become several star nations.

Now, I don't think the first is correct, simply because of the way the MAlign created them by "seeding" families among the early settlers, giving them a lot of clandestine help here and there, and seeing which of them survived. Not all of them did; the 11 we have is what was left after Murphy got done with the stew.

So my answer is that they're not going to jell well enough to become a major factor in the future.

I thought at least some of the RF core systems were already founded/established but then were infiltrated and co-opted by the MAlign over generations.

Plus ... they kind of need to be reasonably close together - at least in the same region - in order for an alliance between them to be reasonably believable.


That said, without the MAlign actively managing things to keep them together and actually be in charge, I suspect that there will be some degree of factionalism to drive them apart.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon May 30, 2016 8:38 am

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JohnRoth wrote:To get back to the original topic: What happens to the RF if the Haven Sector is still a major interstellar power after the SL breaks up?

I think it depends on the astrography. We don't know where any of the 11 RF planets are, other than a strong suspicion that Visigoth is 60 ly on the other side of Beowulf from Earth.

If this is a relatively compact cluster, especially with the Streak Drive, then they'll become a multi-system polity, probably with 50 to 100 or maybe more systems. Pretty big as such things go, but there's going to be a lot of unconsolidated systems on the other side of Sol, especially with their position between the Haven Sector and the rest of the League.

If they're scattered all over the place, then they may not even manage to consolidate as a single star nation, but may become several star nations.

Now, I don't think the first is correct, simply because of the way the MAlign created them by "seeding" families among the early settlers, giving them a lot of clandestine help here and there, and seeing which of them survived. Not all of them did; the 11 we have is what was left after Murphy got done with the stew.

So my answer is that they're not going to jell well enough to become a major factor in the future.
In the MAligns original plan my understanding is that the RFs plan was twofold. First to separately serve as nuclei around which the majority of the League's planets could reform and later consolidate. And second to use that preponderance of power to public ally change the galactic norms on genetic modifications.

It seems to me that over in the RF could manage to consolidate much of the League's industrial power that the existence of a strong GA (including Beowulf) undercuts the RF's ability to discredit the Beowulf code on genetic modifications. They can move forward with more covert mod programs; but attempts to bring those out into the open have to deal with the continued existence, power, and prestige of Beowulf and her new allies.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by Theemile   » Mon May 30, 2016 9:03 am

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munroburton wrote:
darrell wrote:In echo's of Honor, Grayson had 9 medusa SDP's in commission before manticore completed their first, so what makes you think that Grayson needed to buy CLAC's?


House of Steel?

Minotaur-class LAC Carrier
(for specification, see RMN Minotaur CLAC)
Number Purchased: 6
Serice Life: 1914–present

While the GSN was heavily involved in the original design of the Shrike-class LACs, they let the RMN take the lead on initial carrier design. A total of six Minotaur-class carriers were ordered from 1914–1915 PD while the Covington-class was still working up.


The GSN section is full of (for specification, see RMN X Y), for ships they acquired from Manticore.


Munroburton is correct, the Grayson section of HOS is full of purpose built RMN units ( Chansons, Star Knights, Reliants, Minotaurs) built by Manticore especially for Grayson in addition to retiring ships from the RMN to create it's early modern navy.

Alizon and Zanzibar both got their navy and nacent shipyard blown out of space (2x for Zanzibar), and there was a line somewhere in the series about having to replace both their navies.

In CoS,is was mentioned that the lost erewhonese ship, and the ships sent to find it, where of Manticorian design ( so why would a Manty ship be any better), And in ToF, it is explicitedly stated that Erewhon historically had no construction capabilities, and bought all their light and medium units from Manticore.

Most navies would have bought just DDs and CLs, But Erewhon would also have bought a healthy number of CAs and BCs. so just looking at the fleet list OR even HoS numbers of small craft isn't the entire story Manticore's light ship construction capability, and better explains why they were able to gear up light construction in the 2nd war so much.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by darrell   » Mon May 30, 2016 11:21 am

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Theemile wrote:
munroburton wrote:House of Steel?

The GSN section is full of (for specification, see RMN X Y), for ships they acquired from Manticore.


Munroburton is correct, the Grayson section of HOS is full of purpose built RMN units ( Chansons, Star Knights, Reliants, Minotaurs) built by Manticore especially for Grayson in addition to retiring ships from the RMN to create it's early modern navy.

Alizon and Zanzibar both got their navy and nacent shipyard blown out of space (2x for Zanzibar), and there was a line somewhere in the series about having to replace both their navies.

In CoS,is was mentioned that the lost erewhonese ship, and the ships sent to find it, where of Manticorian design ( so why would a Manty ship be any better), And in ToF, it is explicitedly stated that Erewhon historically had no construction capabilities, and bought all their light and medium units from Manticore.

Most navies would have bought just DDs and CLs, But Erewhon would also have bought a healthy number of CAs and BCs. so just looking at the fleet list OR even HoS numbers of small craft isn't the entire story Manticore's light ship construction capability, and better explains why they were able to gear up light construction in the 2nd war so much.


I stand corrected on that point. Nevertheless, 100 light warships for grayson manticoes other allies represents only one years production at wartime levels.

Due to queen Elizabeth's buildup, the majority of manticores light units are less than 20 years old. The majority of the SL light units are more than a century old. Therefore, even though the SL has 5 times the light warships as manticore, the light warships that manticore has kept after building has to be significantly more per year than than the SL builds.

And for the SKM of manticore to have built more than 1,600 light warships at the time of SVW, and for it's construction to be increased every year, they had to be completing on the order of 100 light units a year. 50 for grayson over 2 years until they got their shipyard up and running would be just 25% of manticores production.

Another 10-20 light units for each of manticores other allies (50 total) spread over 10 years would be less than 5% of the total, as by the time of AoV, manticoran warship production has more than doubled.
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Logic: an organized way to go wrong, with confidence.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by JohnRoth   » Mon May 30, 2016 11:53 am

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Kytheros wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:To get back to the original topic: What happens to the RF if the Haven Sector is still a major interstellar power after the SL breaks up?

I think it depends on the astrography. We don't know where any of the 11 RF planets are, other than a strong suspicion that Visigoth is 60 ly on the other side of Beowulf from Earth.

If this is a relatively compact cluster, especially with the Streak Drive, then they'll become a multi-system polity, probably with 50 to 100 or maybe more systems. Pretty big as such things go, but there's going to be a lot of unconsolidated systems on the other side of Sol, especially with their position between the Haven Sector and the rest of the League.

If they're scattered all over the place, then they may not even manage to consolidate as a single star nation, but may become several star nations.

Now, I don't think the first is correct, simply because of the way the MAlign created them by "seeding" families among the early settlers, giving them a lot of clandestine help here and there, and seeing which of them survived. Not all of them did; the 11 we have is what was left after Murphy got done with the stew.

So my answer is that they're not going to jell well enough to become a major factor in the future.

I thought at least some of the RF core systems were already founded/established but then were infiltrated and co-opted by the MAlign over generations.

Plus ... they kind of need to be reasonably close together - at least in the same region - in order for an alliance between them to be reasonably believable.


That said, without the MAlign actively managing things to keep them together and actually be in charge, I suspect that there will be some degree of factionalism to drive them apart.


Given how RFC has said the "sleeper families" were seeded, I can't see a compact cluster. Also, a compact cluster won't have the leverage with all the systems on the other side of Sol unless they're all situated close to the wormhole network.

A dispersed group, however, could very well create a number of nuclei and then consolidate. That's the major reason I think it's a dispersed group. I also think the MAlign expects to be a going concern through the entire process, with Darius lurking invisibly in the background for their "invisible starships" to hammer upstarts that might interfere with the consolidation.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by Sigs   » Mon May 30, 2016 7:10 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:
A dispersed group, however, could very well create a number of nuclei and then consolidate. That's the major reason I think it's a dispersed group. I also think the MAlign expects to be a going concern through the entire process, with Darius lurking invisibly in the background for their "invisible starships" to hammer upstarts that might interfere with the consolidation.


Those ships wont remain invisible for long. Once, the GA finds concrete ways of detection I suspect they will spread it far and wide. Some might not believe and wont listen but not everyone will be stupid and many will follow advice from the GA and those ships become a lot less intimidating.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by darrell   » Mon May 30, 2016 9:42 pm

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Sigs wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:
A dispersed group, however, could very well create a number of nuclei and then consolidate. That's the major reason I think it's a dispersed group. I also think the MAlign expects to be a going concern through the entire process, with Darius lurking invisibly in the background for their "invisible starships" to hammer upstarts that might interfere with the consolidation.


Those ships wont remain invisible for long. Once, the GA finds concrete ways of detection I suspect they will spread it far and wide. Some might not believe and wont listen but not everyone will be stupid and many will follow advice from the GA and those ships become a lot less intimidating.


That is IF the GA can find a concrete way of detection ;)

I suspect that they will, as that would be one way to have the series end faster, but RFC is fantastic at surprising me with the unexpected, as he says dum de dum de dum de dum :lol:
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Logic: an organized way to go wrong, with confidence.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by Sigs   » Mon May 30, 2016 10:33 pm

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darrell wrote:
That is IF the GA can find a concrete way of detection ;)

I suspect that they will, as that would be one way to have the series end faster, but RFC is fantastic at surprising me with the unexpected, as he says dum de dum de dum de dum :lol:



So far every technological breakthrough has had a counter once the other side has a chance to study the breakthrough.

If there is no counter to the "invisible" ships then the GA might as well kiss it's rear end goodbye since the MA would just launch attack after attack against every GA industrial concentration until the GA surrenders or all their industry is gone.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by kzt   » Mon May 30, 2016 11:33 pm

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Sigs wrote:So far every technological breakthrough has had a counter once the other side has a chance to study the breakthrough.

Sure. As soon as they have one to study or at least replicate the entire set of 100 years of research and development.

And I will point out that the after 100 years the most effective counter to submarines is another submarine, all the other counters are highly sub-optimal.
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