Roland Peacetime duties

Would lengthening the Roland to accommodate a bay for a number(2/4) of assault shuttles provide enough room for the marines, their armoury/morgue, practice range & other facilities?

As the previous poster said, a Roland 2.0 design, but make the shuttle bay able to accept modules that would provide brig space when the shuttles would not needed for the planned deployment. I'm sure they could design in all the necessary connections for the modules, including additional life support requirements.

Just a thought.

darrell wrote:I couldn't find any reference anywhere to a flag logistics officer, personnel officer, squadron chief or any clerks. There is little a logistics officer or personnel officer can do aboard ship, so either they are stationed at manticore or IMO more likely the opperations officer handles those duties. I have no idea what a squadron chief does but it is likely that his/her duties are handled by one of the other officers.

Flag in Exile has a good bit of the extra's in Honor's staff. Additionally, at one point Giscard is musing about his staff in Twelfth Fleet how his "logistics officer" is better suited to a base than making sure his/her Admiral has everything they could possibly want, and then a little extra just in case. This was prior to Icarus and definitely pre-Buttercup.

darrell wrote:As far as clerks, I could find no reference to them in any flag officers staff, and can think of 2 instances that make it unlikely that there are any "flag" clerks aboard ship.

Well somebody's gotta man the Flag bridge while all the real officers are off-watch and sleeping, which is usually also while the Admiral they are staff to is sleeping. As defined way back in tSVW, when Honor is flag captain to Sarnow; a 'day' is defined as when the Admiral is awake, when the Admiral retires for the evening, the entire ship seems to relax and the tempo slows a clear indicator that you'd have at best Lieutenant jaygee's and PO's manning flag bridge, which just about fill the definition of clerks.

darrell wrote:Where do they store and maintain their powered armor? If you think it doesn't need to be repaired and maintained you are delusional.

Not all units of marines even get powered body armor, so this is a blowout. Marine skinnies is all they need for 90% of operations, you really only need powered battle armor, for pitched (large) battles. Aside from high risk battles, powered battle armor can double as fast moving scouts.... you don't need fast moving flankers scouting while boarding a pirate. And skinnies obviously can be maintained easily since the People's Navy skippers had to maintain it themselves and still be skipper for their ships with all the time that hogs up.

darrell wrote:Where do they keep all their weapons? As just one example, Hearns needed to use a jerry rigged repair robot instead of the normal breaching charge in the assault to recover the "quarantined" manty crews on shona station.

Well every ship has an armory, so you know, the marine weapons would probably go there. Nearly everytime a ships marines have ever been used, they had more than sufficient time to go to the ship armory and draw weapons and ammo before deploying. The only fast deployment was in OBS, and Honor had ordered the pinnaces to be pre-stocked, just in case, so all the Marines had to do was get onto the pinnaces ASAP, and their weapons & skinnies were there. This is also done for StateSec assault shuttles, so weapons storage is hardly a big deal of "must be kept in authorized areas only".

All in all, the only really hard part of a Roland hauling a squad (or two) of Marines around in flag accomodations is being forced to hot-bunk, and possibly training larger than fire-team levels. Except you only need fireteam level squads to quickly and efficiently clear a ship of any pirates trying to hide out and retake their ship later.

The hotbunking issue might be a problem, eventually, and the Marines would bitch mercilessly. But they bitch about being forced to wear skinnies and sometimes their bitching is strictly pro-forma, like the Marines that dropped in to say hello to Denver Summervale simply bitched for the sake of bitching.

The issue that some people are missing is that the squadron staff isn't just the combat leadership, it's also the administrative organization that manages the squadron. The squadron is responsible for training the squadron and staff, operational efficiency, personnel management (discipline, pay, individual training etc) logistics (like making sure that the right supply ships with the right gear are at the right place and time), and all the other things that come with being responsible for lives 600 people and the effective use and proper upkeep of billion dollars worth equipment in combat or peace.

There is a huge amount of routine stuff that has to be done outside of the less than 1% of time you are actually in combat. And if you don't do that correctly the ability of the ships to do their mission declines.

Ummm you do realise that flag capacity is more than the rooms you put the officers in right?

I remember from somewhere (House of steel?) that when RFC talks about flag capacity he isn't talking about how many sardines you can fit into the tin. Flag capacity is all the command and control material you build into the hull of the ship. In the Honorverse this stuff is bulky, not necessarily mass intensive but bulky.

These are the extra high rez displays, the extra comm runs, the dedicatd comm channels and transmitters so that the captain and the flag officer arn't trying to transmit at the same time from the same transmitter etc etc etc.

We may think these requirements are overblown by modern standards but just look at how much space and electronics you have in the fleet CIC in a carrier battle group for an idea of what weber is thinking about.

Silverwall wrote:Ummm you do realise that flag capacity is more than the rooms you put the officers in right?

I remember from somewhere (House of steel?) that when RFC talks about flag capacity he isn't talking about how many sardines you can fit into the tin. Flag capacity is all the command and control material you build into the hull of the ship. In the Honorverse this stuff is bulky, not necessarily mass intensive but bulky.

These are the extra high rez displays, the extra comm runs, the dedicatd comm channels and transmitters so that the captain and the flag officer arn't trying to transmit at the same time from the same transmitter etc etc etc.

We may think these requirements are overblown by modern standards but just look at how much space and electronics you have in the fleet CIC in a carrier battle group for an idea of what weber is thinking about.

Correct. So much that on legacy BCs and SDs designated as flagships, they generally removed one or two weapons from each broadside to free up surface area and internal volume. Sometimes that isn't enough room, so they add a few metres to the ship's length.

The lead ship of this class, GNS Raoul Courvosier, was built with a slightly reduced broadside to free up mass for a flag staff and full scale fleet CIC and communications network.

and

[Benjamin the Great-class SD]
This class was originally designed as an advanced variant of the Denevski-class; but, with the secret SD (P) program already starting up, the ships were modified after laydown into dedicated command ships. The hull was extended an additional nine meters; and two grasers were removed from the broadsides to accommodate an advanced command deck, room for flag staff, larger and more sensitive sensor arrays, more extensive communication equipment, and a significant increase in active defense.

and

Designed from the keel out as a squadron flagship, the Reliant class has three boat bays with reserved visitor space for up to four additional pinnaces.

Note that the Graysons' Courvosier started out on the drawing board as a Reliant - an indication that "squadron flagship" capabilities is considerably less than that of "fleet flagship". Or possibly they got rid of the flag facilities on the class 'template'.

So yes, there should be an amount of tonnage on the Rolands "wasted" on flag facilities. Unfortunately, other than the bunks(and possibly boat bay capacity), little of it can easily be reassigned to Marine operations.

But there should be room for a squad, their armoured skinnies and standard weapons. All I can think is perhaps the Corps said to BuShips "We're not putting less than a platoon aboard any ship." It's not unreasonable, as Marines posted aboard ship might be expected to carry out shipboard duties round-the-clock, such as standing sentry outside the skipper's cabin, guarding the armoury, etc.. And in the case of the Roland, BuShips wasn't prepared to shoehorn in full platoon accomodations along with everything else(they had to displace a lot of hammerhead equipment into the main hull for their missile launchers, plus the flag equipment had to go somewhere).

munroburton wrote:

Silverwall wrote:Ummm you do realise that flag capacity is more than the rooms you put the officers in right?

I remember from somewhere (House of steel?) that when RFC talks about flag capacity he isn't talking about how many sardines you can fit into the tin. Flag capacity is all the command and control material you build into the hull of the ship. In the Honorverse this stuff is bulky, not necessarily mass intensive but bulky.

These are the extra high rez displays, the extra comm runs, the dedicatd comm channels and transmitters so that the captain and the flag officer arn't trying to transmit at the same time from the same transmitter etc etc etc.

We may think these requirements are overblown by modern standards but just look at how much space and electronics you have in the fleet CIC in a carrier battle group for an idea of what weber is thinking about.

Correct. So much that on legacy BCs and SDs designated as flagships, they generally removed one or two weapons from each broadside to free up surface area and internal volume. Sometimes that isn't enough room, so they add a few metres to the ship's length.

The lead ship of this class, GNS Raoul Courvosier, was built with a slightly reduced broadside to free up mass for a flag staff and full scale fleet CIC and communications network.

and

[Benjamin the Great-class SD]
This class was originally designed as an advanced variant of the Denevski-class; but, with the secret SD (P) program already starting up, the ships were modified after laydown into dedicated command ships. The hull was extended an additional nine meters; and two grasers were removed from the broadsides to accommodate an advanced command deck, room for flag staff, larger and more sensitive sensor arrays, more extensive communication equipment, and a significant increase in active defense.

and

Designed from the keel out as a squadron flagship, the Reliant class has three boat bays with reserved visitor space for up to four additional pinnaces.

Note that the Graysons' Courvosier started out on the drawing board as a Reliant - an indication that "squadron flagship" capabilities is considerably less than that of "fleet flagship". Or possibly they got rid of the flag facilities on the class 'template'.

So yes, there should be an amount of tonnage on the Rolands "wasted" on flag facilities. Unfortunately, other than the bunks(and possibly boat bay capacity), little of it can easily be reassigned to Marine operations.

But there should be room for a squad, their armoured skinnies and standard weapons. All I can think is perhaps the Corps said to BuShips "We're not putting less than a platoon aboard any ship." It's not unreasonable, as Marines posted aboard ship might be expected to carry out shipboard duties round-the-clock, such as standing sentry outside the skipper's cabin, guarding the armoury, etc.. And in the case of the Roland, BuShips wasn't prepared to shoehorn in full platoon accomodations along with everything else(they had to displace a lot of hammerhead equipment into the main hull for their missile launchers, plus the flag equipment had to go somewhere).

As a mental exercise I decided to do things the opposite way and try to figure out what space a platoon of marines would need if they had the facilities they should have shipboard. By the time you figure in bunking space, training rooms, (including gym facilities) equipment storage (including armor and special weapons) as well as hallways and life support, I came up with about 100 cubic meters per marine.

I too think that the way to go is a roland B, which would be 5% bigger at 198,200 tons. That would be 53,000 more cubic meters space. 5,000-6,000 can be used for a platoon of marines, which would still leave you lots of room for more bunkerage, supplies, electronics, and other things.

Thinking more about the class, making the entire class with flag facilities seems like a waste. I realize that at the start of the first war with Haven the RMN was caught short of flag capable cruisers but destroyers are a different beast in the current climate. If 25% as flagships is not enough then making it 40% should allow the RMN to meet its needs.


Roland-A: Current design no new Rolands of this class will be laid down.

Roland-B: Enlarged Roland with Flag facilities, facilities for one Squad and limited brig facilities.

Roland-C: Enlarged Roland with one platoon of Marines, enhanced brig facilities and armed small craft for those marines.


If 40% of all Roland's have flag capabilities then that should be enough while also giving them the ability to perform anti piracy missions is a bonus. The other 60% of the class would be able to conduct independent operations.

And the remaining Roland-A's would be assigned for escorts for ships like the Kamerling class, Marines wont be necessary there since the Kamerling already has more than enough.


So a Roland Squadron would have between 5 and 6 platoons depending on the breakdown of the squadron.

So how much space do you have per Marine on a LSD?

Lets look at the Harpers Ferry class.
16,708 tons full load. 609 feet long and 84 feet beam.
Crew of 22 officers, 397 enlisted. 402 marines with 102 surge possible. It carries almost 5000 tons of cargo for the marines. The Marines are there for the typical 6 month float.

Do you think they have a gym that can accommodate 500 marines at the same time? How often do the marines whose M1A1 tanks are carried get a chance to practice live fire?

Here's the rifle range on an LSD

I suspect that it is possible to find some place on the outside of a ship in the Honorverse where you can shoot at things that are in a safe direction.

I rather thought that the Rolands were a wartime design & that in peacetime they would tend to be laid up, much as many of the Royal Navy's specialised escorts were laid up after WW II. Besides wouldn't the Wolfhounds & Avalons be better ships for peacetime duties? After all they do have the larger crews &, certainly in the case of the Avalons, there is a larger number of them.

kzt wrote:So how much space do you have per Marine on a LSD?

Lets look at the Harpers Ferry class.
16,708 tons full load. 609 feet long and 84 feet beam.
Crew of 22 officers, 397 enlisted. 402 marines with 102 surge possible. It carries almost 5000 tons of cargo for the marines.

Do you think they have a gym that can accommodate 500 marines at the same time? How often do the marines whose M1A1 tanks are carried get a chance to practice live fire?

Here's the rifle range on an LSD

I suspect that it is possible to find some place on the outside of a ship in the Honorverse where you can shoot at things that are in a safe direction.

Actually, there is evidence that the RMN ships do carry weapons ranges. Admittedly these are mainly pistol or sidearm ranges as shown in Field of Dishonor but as even a light cruiser like Agni carries one then a specialised marine assault ship should certainly be able to. As for the lethality of the marines pulse rifles these could have their muzzle velocity stepped down to allow for the confined space.