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Shadow of Victory – Publication date

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Re: Shadow of Victory – Publication date
Post by cthia   » Thu May 26, 2016 4:06 am

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Louis R wrote:My guess? Pinnace or shuttle in low-speed air-breathing configuration. Looks like they forgot to pass Mr Mattingly any of Maxx's small craft renders.

cthia wrote:Thanks. "Whew," I was way too invested in that one.

One more "snotty" question. What type of ship is that depicted on the cover?


MaxxQ wrote:Well, I figured it might be an assault shuttle, simply because we don't have any art worth showing of those at the moment - mostly just very preliminary stuff from years ago that will need reworked to match our current design philosophy.

Could also be something from another Star Nation, police force, or whatever.

It's Snotty Time:

Have sting ships, pinnaces and assault shuttles displaced what would be the Honorverse version of fighter jets in atmosphere?

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Re: Shadow of Victory – Publication date
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu May 26, 2016 8:05 am

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cthia wrote:It's Snotty Time:

Have sting ships, pinnaces and assault shuttles displaced what would be the Honorverse version of fighter jets in atmosphere?
Yep, because a sting ship is basically an atmospheric fighter evolved to take advantage of counter grav and sometimes having a minimal capability to reach orbit. Pinnaces and assault shuttles are deep space capable (having impellers so they can bring up a wedge when exo-atmospheric) in addition to their counter grav and airbreathing thrusters.

The closest thing we've seen to a pure fighter jet is the advanced trainers Honor and Paul Tankersley took out for a mock dogfight. Those deliberately omitted counter grav, but a sting ship should be able to crush them head-to-head. (There any be some true neobarb world without counter grav, or at least without the ability to build if down into a practical stingship that might use fighter jets; but none I can recall us seeing.
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Re: Shadow of Victory – Publication date
Post by MaxxQ   » Thu May 26, 2016 9:49 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:It's Snotty Time:

Have sting ships, pinnaces and assault shuttles displaced what would be the Honorverse version of fighter jets in atmosphere?
Yep, because a sting ship is basically an atmospheric fighter evolved to take advantage of counter grav and sometimes having a minimal capability to reach orbit. Pinnaces and assault shuttles are deep space capable (having impellers so they can bring up a wedge when exo-atmospheric) in addition to their counter grav and airbreathing thrusters.

The closest thing we've seen to a pure fighter jet is the advanced trainers Honor and Paul Tankersley took out for a mock dogfight. Those deliberately omitted counter grav, but a sting ship should be able to crush them head-to-head. (There any be some true neobarb world without counter grav, or at least without the ability to build if down into a practical stingship that might use fighter jets; but none I can recall us seeing.


What he said^^^

Pinnaces can be fitted with heavier weapons than it already has, or at least, a heavier weapons load. Standard loadout for at least the Condor is a pair of internal 30mm tribarrels and a 5cm laser. There's also provision for underwing stores, and we have had some thoughts on prefab weapon pods that would fit into the cargo hatch openings* that would turn the Condor into something like an AC-130 gunship.

Of course, a pinnace isn't actually optimized for dogfighting, but stingships are. Stingships are capable of going into space, but not much farther than orbit, and definitely not interplanetary. Stingships are similarly armed to a basic pinnace loadout, maybe slightly more powerful weapons.

Assault shuttles basically take over the role of something like the F-111** - a heavy fighter/medium bomber and for obvious reasons, are much more heavily armed and armored than a pinnace.

*There are four cargo hatches - one on either side, and a pair in the belly.

**And probably just as ugly :mrgreen: I used to be a bomb loader in the Air Force and F-111s were the only aircraft I worked on back then.
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Re: Shadow of Victory – Publication date
Post by WeberFan   » Thu May 26, 2016 12:46 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:It's Snotty Time:

Have sting ships, pinnaces and assault shuttles displaced what would be the Honorverse version of fighter jets in atmosphere?
Yep, because a sting ship is basically an atmospheric fighter evolved to take advantage of counter grav and sometimes having a minimal capability to reach orbit. Pinnaces and assault shuttles are deep space capable (having impellers so they can bring up a wedge when exo-atmospheric) in addition to their counter grav and airbreathing thrusters.

The closest thing we've seen to a pure fighter jet is the advanced trainers Honor and Paul Tankersley took out for a mock dogfight. Those deliberately omitted counter grav, but a sting ship should be able to crush them head-to-head. (There any be some true neobarb world without counter grav, or at least without the ability to build if down into a practical stingship that might use fighter jets; but none I can recall us seeing.


I don't recall seeing it anywhere, but the thought just came to my head - wondering if stingships are equipped with inertial compensators the way warships are. If not, then the stingship performance is limited to the physiological limits of the pilot flying it. Yes, I know... getting WAY off track from the topic of the thread. Apologies, but I had to ask the question here because it was this post that evoked the question.
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Re: Shadow of Victory – Publication date
Post by kzt   » Thu May 26, 2016 1:07 pm

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Yes, they have impellers and long range capability. Manticore limits by doctrine what they can do, but you could in theory run the more capable ones from Manticore A to B. Not sure how long the life support system will run, so this might end badly.
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Re: Shadow of Victory – Publication date
Post by Theemile   » Thu May 26, 2016 1:11 pm

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WeberFan wrote:
I don't recall seeing it anywhere, but the thought just came to my head - wondering if stingships are equipped with inertial compensators the way warships are. If not, then the stingship performance is limited to the physiological limits of the pilot flying it. Yes, I know... getting WAY off track from the topic of the thread. Apologies, but I had to ask the question here because it was this post that evoked the question.


If they have a wedge, sure, its possible, but all the stingships we've seen are countergrav craft. If so, the'd be limited by grav plate's ability to absorb Gs, So assuming a similiar pilot load to today, it is feasible that they could pull ~900gs in extreme maneuvers, and 50-100 all the time - if the ship' structure could handle that...
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Re: Shadow of Victory – Publication date
Post by darrell   » Thu May 26, 2016 2:30 pm

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Theemile wrote:
WeberFan wrote:
I don't recall seeing it anywhere, but the thought just came to my head - wondering if stingships are equipped with inertial compensators the way warships are. If not, then the stingship performance is limited to the physiological limits of the pilot flying it. Yes, I know... getting WAY off track from the topic of the thread. Apologies, but I had to ask the question here because it was this post that evoked the question.


If they have a wedge, sure, its possible, but all the stingships we've seen are countergrav craft. If so, the'd be limited by grav plate's ability to absorb Gs, So assuming a similiar pilot load to today, it is feasible that they could pull ~900gs in extreme maneuvers, and 50-100 all the time - if the ship' structure could handle that...


being counter grav atmospheric craft, they would not have a wedge, which means they won't have a compensator, which means that their acceleration is limited to what their grav plates can handle.

I can recall 3 instances of craft that operate at high acceleration on grav plates.

In sidmore on the shuttle after honor killed warneke, accelerated at 100g's with 5g's felt by the crew.

In hades the BC's accelerated at 150g's, with 5 G's leaking through.

The Ghosts and sharks have a maximum 150g acceleration.

That would put the stingship maximum at 150 G's, possibly less.
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Re: Shadow of Victory – Publication date
Post by kzt   » Thu May 26, 2016 2:36 pm

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darrell wrote:being counter grav atmospheric craft, they would not have a wedge, which means they won't have a compensator, which means that their acceleration is limited to what their grav plates can handle.

HoS wrote:The Viper is the standard single-seat stingship operated by the Army, a high performance impeller-drive hypersonic attack fighter capable of operations from “treetops to low orbit” as well as limited space capability.
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Re: Shadow of Victory – Publication date
Post by darrell   » Thu May 26, 2016 2:46 pm

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kzt wrote:
darrell wrote:being counter grav atmospheric craft, they would not have a wedge, which means they won't have a compensator, which means that their acceleration is limited to what their grav plates can handle.

HoS wrote:The Viper is the standard single-seat stingship operated by the Army, a high performance impeller-drive hypersonic attack fighter capable of operations from “treetops to low orbit” as well as limited space capability.



oops, so like shuttles the viper is a dual craft able to operate on impeller in space, but since there is a limit to how low you can go with an impeller wedge, at treetop level it would have to operate on countergrav.

While it should be able to operate at 800g's in space under impeller, it would be limited to 50g's at treetop level under countergrav. what the minimum height is for impellers I don't know, but would be surprised if it was not somewhere on the order of 50-100KM.
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Re: Shadow of Victory – Publication date
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu May 26, 2016 3:02 pm

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darrell wrote:oops, so like shuttles the viper is a dual craft able to operate on impeller in space, but since there is a limit to how low you can go with an impeller wedge, at treetop level it would have to operate on countergrav.

While it should be able to operate at 800g's in space under impeller, it would be limited to 50g's at treetop level under countergrav. what the minimum height is for impellers I don't know, but would be surprised if it was not somewhere on the order of 50-100KM.

A sting ship like a viper should be significantly smaller than a pinnace (less range, no need for cargo/passenger capacity) so it should have a smaller wedge. But I don't know how much smaller.

On the one hand impeller powered man portable missiles, with their tiny wedges, can be fired from ground level and ignite those (brief lived) wedges seemingly with 20 feet or so of the ground.

On the other hand pinnaces and shuttles seem to normally shut down their impellers about the time they hit atmosphere; switching over to air-breathing turbines and countergrav.

100 km is high enough that the stingship would basically be outside the atmosphere. On the one hand that seems an excessive amount of ground clearance :D, but it does limit the effects of a vehicle sized wedge's grav shear on the atmosphere. Also, the top speed within atmosphere is probably temperature limited; and even if the hull and exposed hardware can take the heat it's got to be hard to see and target through the compression plasma of greater than hypersonic speeds. So it would seem you can't use a wedge's acceleration for long in atmo. So maybe it is restricted to transorbital use.
(Though if so you'd think you could build an even higher performance atmo only stingship that omitted the mass and volume of the impellers)
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