Roland Peacetime duties

Really? I suspect the squadron staff consists of:

The squadron CO. (1) Who is entitled to an orderly. (2) XO (probably in another ship normally). The Operations officer (3) Communications officer (4) Logistics officer (5) Personnel officer (6) Squadron chief (7) At least 5 enlisted clerks etc (12).

So we have at least one 05, one 04, 3 O2-4, One senior NCO, 5 junior enlisted.

I suspect you can accommodate 12 marines in the billeting designed for the 12+ members of the command staff.

How many marines could be accommodated in the normal CO quarters on ship? The one with the dining room, etc? How about the Operations officers quarters?

I suspect that you could accommodate at least two squads easily and possibly an entire platoon.

kzt wrote:Really? I suspect the squadron staff consists of:

The squadron CO. (1) Who is entitled to an orderly. (2) XO (probably in another ship normally). The Operations officer (3) Communications officer (4) Logistics officer (5) Personnel officer (6) Squadron chief (7) At least 5 enlisted clerks etc (12).

So we have at least one 05, one 04, 3 O2-4, One senior NCO, 5 junior enlisted.

That's probably a bare minimum. We have see an Admiral's staff with tactical officer, EWO, Navigator, and a duplicate CIC with round the clock staffing. How much that is constrained by a Roland's size is arguable, but I don't think crew space is as tight as in older, less automated ships.

Weird Harold wrote:

kzt wrote:Really? I suspect the squadron staff consists of:

The squadron CO. (1) Who is entitled to an orderly. (2) XO (probably in another ship normally). The Operations officer (3) Communications officer (4) Logistics officer (5) Personnel officer (6) Squadron chief (7) At least 5 enlisted clerks etc (12).

So we have at least one 05, one 04, 3 O2-4, One senior NCO, 5 junior enlisted.

That's probably a bare minimum. We have see an Admiral's staff with tactical officer, EWO, Navigator, and a duplicate CIC with round the clock staffing. How much that is constrained by a Roland's size is arguable, but I don't think crew space is as tight as in older, less automated ships.

Plus the squadron commander's flag lieutenant.

Weird Harold wrote:

Kytheros wrote:I mostly agree with that, except that even a squadron of Rolands doesn't really have the crew capacity for anti-piracy or convoy escort duties, sure, they'll have the collective crew for it, but each Roland can only afford to give up a handful of people - they can probably manage to find boarding and prize crews for one or two merchants or one small pirate. I'm not sure they'd be able to put even a skeleton prize crew on a proper conventional/legacy warship - and I doubt they'd have the space to keep, much less keep secure, a few hundred prisoners.

In a Convoy Escort mission, a division (4 ships) has at least three flag decks and more than four freighters worth of extra crew space and brig space.

That's why Rolands can best be used for convoy escorts. They don't have the extra manpower and space without the convoy, so they are less useful for solo patrols in an anti-piracy role. They would have to be paired with some other ship type with the necessary manpower and space.

kzt wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:In a Convoy Escort mission, a division (4 ships) has at least three flag decks and more than four freighters worth of extra crew space and brig space.

We all know that there is an absolute religious prohibition in the RMN about using unused flag bridges and the quarters for the squadron command staff for anything other then a squadron command staff. So stop bringing up this totally logical idea.

In terms of pure volume, there's no doubt sufficient habitable spaces to replace the volume on a Roland used for the flag deck, and associated personnel, with an equivalent number of marines.
However ... a unit of Marines requires more than just somewhere to sleep and eat. There needs to be somewhere for all their gear, a firing range, other training areas, etc.
You can't do those things with, say, the Flag Bridge, without a refit.
You also still don't have sufficient space or life support capacity to take on and secure prisoners in any sort of quantity. You might be able to gain some brig space with a refit, true.
Basically, to use the flag bridge and associated volume for Marines and the other needs for anti-piracy/convoy escort assignments would require a refit.
And even with a suitable refit, I don't think Rolands really have sufficient capacity for boarding/inspection parties and detaching prize crews and taking and keeping prisoners.



If you're running convoy escort, you aren't sticking your prisoners on the transports you're protecting, unless it's a POW convoy.
You aren't using the transports to transport Marines and the like for the convoy escorts on a regular basis.


I'd agree that a division of Rolands plus a legacy ship or Kamerling could manage convoy escort, with the Rolands providing ship-to-ship firepower, and the legacy or Kamerling the boarding parties, brig space, and prize crews. I've said as much earlier in the thread.
However ... on their own, Rolands can't do that, and I don't believe assigning a transport to each convoy escorted by Rolands to carry the Marine support and prize crews and brig space necessary is a viable option. Oh, sure, it's technically feasible for any one convoy, but I don't see it being a popular option.



Rolands are just too specialized to last very long.

I suspect the only non-warfighting fleet assignment that Rolands will get is scouting sensor reports from the massive system defense grav arrays around major systems. That requires no assigning of other ships to support them in order to cover for their deficiencies, and requires no refits.

I don't think Manticore will build any more Rolands.

Size isn't the problem. Life support and brig for prisoners, is a problem. Add in Prize crew and the Roland just doesn't work outside of military actions. It could work as an escort to other ships, with Marines, Brig and Prize crews. But on its own it just doesn't fill the Normal DD or CL roles. Saganami C might fill some of these roles. Nike fills the CA BC roles.

In Non Military roles the Shrike Ferret Katana LAC are much like the Roland. Pretty useless.

RFC BuNine can make great Military craft, what is needed going forward, assuming one can see a time of peace in the future, is going to be a set of ships for the new MDM inter-actions and the crews needed to complete these missions.

So far the only ship that meets some of these requirements is the Nike BCL and even that is held back with the Dual stage Mk16 missile. If it used a MDM missile it might have a chance. But you would hate to bring a Mk16 to a Mk23 fight. The old knife (very good knife) to a gunfight. Given that a Nike takes almost as long and requires a yard slip equal to an SD one is better off building a large Tubed Super Dreadnaught or Super Cruiser.

A Saganami C itself has too few crew to even fulfill the DD role in peace time. In battle it is best, but as a customs patrol boat it to is a compromise.

Like just about every Craft/Ship built by Manticore after 1900 PD They are awesome and great and best parked and abandoned as soon as peace breaks out.

Even the CLAC is lacking the depth to carry larger LAC.

The SD(P) has the crew and some Brig capabilities. But even here the Pod bay takes up so much room it just lacks the inside room for a proper Brig and hanger bay. Again it is Best at fighting Wars but at system security it just has everyone scrambling with any prisoners in close proximity to everything and everyone you don't want them near.

Super Cruiser Produced in Silesia using upgradable Missile Tubes. Similar to a Nike with Full Brig and Marines dedicated spaces. The BLAC made to carry 15 Large or 30 Small LAC. With the updated Highlander II LAC. Mounting Single shot MDM tubes. And PD broadside antiship Lasers. Viper CM and inspection crew and pilot teams to guide ships in home systems. Small bottle and backup Pile. And the Silesia Class Super Dreadnaught in a more traditional design made to Fulfil the roles of Both the pod-layer and the old school SD. One might add a Commercial new Freighter with older highly efficient Hyperspace nodes and for n space use Beta squared military Wedge powered nodes. A Fast Freighter where it might encounter Pirates with PD and Viper CM.

Previously Space commerce viewed losing some ships to Pirates as just the cost of doing business. Now this no longer needs to be the case. One can just add a Single Beta squared "third" node ring. Add defensive capabilities and out run and swat away any incoming fire. What is cheaper more expensive ships or losing ships.

As for the Roland it can kill anything, the proverbial Honey badger of Ships. But have you ever seen a Honey Badger Police Animal? Drug sniffer? Service Animal? Keep everyone away from the blind guy. "Hey Fluffy why are all the car horns honking"

Kytheros wrote:However ... a unit of Marines requires more than just somewhere to sleep and eat. There needs to be somewhere for all their gear, a firing range, other training areas, etc.
You can't do those things with, say, the Flag Bridge, without a refit.

Well all ships have a firing range sufficient for at least pistol practice. Nothing smaller than a battlecruiser would have enough open space for a dedicated firing range for rifles or larger, unless the gyms happen to double for that.

By training, I'd guess you mean PT, which the main gym can again serve the purpose. Roland's may not have been designed with Marines in mind, but the gym is designed to take entire off-duty watches. It'd crimp the navy's exercise regimes, but they're not the ones who have to get into physical reach of people, so any naval exercising can be reduced for the duration of patrols.

Kytheros wrote:You also still don't have sufficient space or life support capacity to take on and secure prisoners in any sort of quantity. You might be able to gain some brig space with a refit, true.

You'd have to cram the existing Roland brig higher than it's recommended load, but even when captured by the Peeps, Honor + Prince Adrian crew were also kept inside standard crew quarters (presumably with at least two Marines at either end of the deck). Pirates are rather less likely to stage breakouts, because they don't get the same hand-to-hand training as military personnel.

Kytheros wrote:I'd agree that a division of Rolands plus a legacy ship or Kamerling could manage convoy escort, with the Rolands providing ship-to-ship firepower, and the legacy or Kamerling the boarding parties, brig space, and prize crews. I've said as much earlier in the thread.
However ... on their own, Rolands can't do that, and I don't believe assigning a transport to each convoy escorted by Rolands to carry the Marine support and prize crews and brig space necessary is a viable option. Oh, sure, it's technically feasible for any one convoy, but I don't see it being a popular option.

Agree with you here, Roland's aren't likely to seriously patrol solo, but in a slightly mixed squadron they can do so much more efficiently.

kzt wrote:Really? I suspect the squadron staff consists of:

The squadron CO. (1) Who is entitled to an orderly. (2) XO (probably in another ship normally). The Operations officer (3) Communications officer (4) Logistics officer (5) Personnel officer (6) Squadron chief (7) At least 5 enlisted clerks etc (12).

So we have at least one 05, one 04, 3 O2-4, One senior NCO, 5 junior enlisted.

I suspect you can accommodate 12 marines in the billeting designed for the 12+ members of the command staff.

How many marines could be accommodated in the normal CO quarters on ship? The one with the dining room, etc? How about the Operations officers quarters?

I suspect that you could accommodate at least two squads easily and possibly an entire platoon.

You need to look at House of Steel and other books again. There is two reasons that you can't accommodate even a squadron of marines in a the space reserved for a flag officer and his crew.

Less important is that your suspicion of crew size bears no resemblance to the actual books. Lets start with marines: From HoS
A Marine rifle squad consists of thirteen members:

and a platoon has 55 members, (3 rifle and 1 heavy weapons squads) with 154 in a company.

There are many books that detail what a flag officers staff ABOARD SHIP is:
1. The CO.
2. His/her steward.
3. The flag lieutenant.
4. Chief of staff
5. Tactical officer
6. Communications officer.
7. Intelligence officer.
8. Operations officer.

I couldn't find any reference anywhere to a flag logistics officer, personnel officer, squadron chief or any clerks. There is little a logistics officer or personnel officer can do aboard ship, so either they are stationed at manticore or IMO more likely the opperations officer handles those duties. I have no idea what a squadron chief does but it is likely that his/her duties are handled by one of the other officers.

As far as clerks, I could find no reference to them in any flag officers staff, and can think of 2 instances that make it unlikely that there are any "flag" clerks aboard ship.

A. It would have been easier and less disruptive for terrikov to assign a clerk as an aide to van dort in monica than his flag lieutenant.

B. It would have been easier and less disruptive for Henke to assign a clerk as an intelligence assistant than her flag lieutenant.

Even if you are right about several clerks aboard, You still won't be able to have facilities for 25 or 50 marines in a space designed for 12-15. And if I am right and there is only 8 total for a flag officer and her crew, you would have trouble with even 13 marines.

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You totally ignored the most important section of my post. If you put a squadron of marines into the flag accommodations, they would be Under equipped, poorly trained warm bodies.

Where do they exercise and train? Some navy crew never exercise, most only occasionally exercise, only a few like Honor exercise religiously. If the average is 10-15 minutes per day, seldom will there be more than one person in the gym of a roland, and there will be largee blocks of time when the gym will be unoccupied. Add 13 marines that will be either exercising or training 8 hours per day and the few exercise machines won't be near enough to handle the load.

Where do they store and maintain their powered armor? If you think it doesn't need to be repaired and maintained you are delusional.

Where do they keep all their weapons? As just one example, Hearns needed to use a jerry rigged repair robot instead of the normal breaching charge in the assault to recover the "quarantined" manty crews on shona station.

In order to be able to carry even a squad of properly trained and equipped marines flag deck facilities would have to be both bigger and designed differently.

Well darrell, old DD's at a mere 100,000tons had 300-500??? people aboard with marines and all of their gear.

Training space aboard ship is not a problem in my book. The space already exists and is woefully underutilized with all of 72 people aboard who are not forced to even use it.

PS. A flag accommodations for a DD squadron are NOT going to be true for that of a CA, BC, or SD... Same goes for the additional personnel.

That being said, I would go a slightly different route. I would position that due to prolong, enlistment periods should be by decade. 10 years or greater. Plenty of time to cross train the basics of armor etc. These people are not being asked to garrison a planet. No reason the naval personnel cannot do what marines typically do. Especially on a small ship like a DD. Now, go into a CA where the jobs required increase drastically, and then one does need quite a bit more specialized training and more importantly a institutionalized knowledge base that only comes from old salts who do it for a living teaching young fools which end of a gun to hold.

How big is the gym on a USN LSD? How are the range facilities? How can they possibly accommodate a company plus and keep them fit without a swimming pool? How can the marine tankers maintain any their skills without being able to do live fire?

Marine quarters on ships are kind of sucky. That how it is. You can't practice a lot of crap living in a metal box. So you need to already really know how to do that, and you practice when a convenient situation arises. And you make do.

Or since there are only 30-35 Rolands remaining in service and more are likely not to be commissioned for a while why not go for Roland 2.0? Add the facilities that Marines would need in addition to the flag facilities and/or add space to the flag facilities to be able to accommodate the marines.

If the Flag facilities are not in use 2 squads of marines can be based there, if the flag facilities ARE in use then only one is based there.


If the admiralty decides that the Rolands have a place in the fleet on more than just temporary basis then the time to modify the designs would be when there are no ships under construction.