What happens if the GA demands the SL breakup?

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:[quote="Loren Pechtel"]
But why would they want to? It's the Mandarins on Earth that are determined to fight in order to avoid the collapse of their system. With them no longer issuing the orders I think the other systems would be much more amendable to reason--and they have no reason to pursue the war.

You could replace "Mandarins on Earth" with "Saddam Hussein" and get a good approximation of the result. How has "regime change" worked out in Iraq?

It's made a mess of Iraq but Iraq isn't a threat to anyone else at this point.[/quote]
Iraq is a little more akin to knocking off the Mandarins, watching the elected officials try to run the place, and then the RF decides to conquer with a resurgant North Hollow in Manticore

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Do forgive me my humor and manners...

The title of this thread reminds me of this, in the 'Who Dies Next" thread...

cthia wrote:If Honor becomes Protector Regent, then 'who dies next' would be over fifty percent of the Keys from a domino effect caused by a sudden string of apoplectic fits.

Well ...

If those neobarbs showed up in Solarian space asking for a dismemberment then there'd be a domino effect, caused by a sudden string of apoplectic shits.

Yet the excrement would never hit the fan because the League's heads are so far up their anal orifices impeding the release of pressure, that when that containment failure farted, that shit'd blow straight up in their faces!

Then the RMN can just demand a dismemberment, claiming the present gorilla was a stinkin' mess.

I guess that would amount to being scared shitless.

Yet, as slow as that bureaucracy works, it'd take years to change their diapers and clean up the crap.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Bill Woods wrote:What would that even mean? They could order the dismantling of the SLN's ships, backed by the threat "or else we'll do it for you", but the League itself -- how? Demand that the Assembly passes a bill dissolving the League? How could it be enforced? How would the GA prevent hundreds of systems from covertly forming an alliance to destroy the Manties?

But why would they want to? It's the Mandarins on Earth that are determined to fight in order to avoid the collapse of their system. With them no longer issuing the orders I think the other systems would be much more amendable to reason--and they have no reason to pursue the war.

A bit of "nobody picked on my brother but me" combined with fear that if the GA was that high-handed now they might decide to be that high-handed against any individual planetary government.
(And Sigs kind of already touched on this)

That can cause people, and current planetary governments, to band together and build up to the point where, at minimum, the GA physically can't do the same to them. And at worst, they'll overshoot and be pushed by public opinion (or rabble rousing) into using the milataries they've built up to firmly show the GA that they can't meddle with them. (After if you've kept the public whipped up enough to fully support a multi-decade military build-up in response to the dismantling of the League, it's pretty hard to turn around and tell them "hey, it's all good now we're powerful enough they'll never screw with us. Everybody can finally calm down)


I feel Manticore needs to bend over backwards to always seem the reasonable party, and the one offended against, so that the vast majority of the League members are comfortable that if they don't go far out of their way to provoke Manticore or the GA that they have nothing to fear from them. Retaliating to Raging Justice by raiding the Sol system, or even major military shipyards, without yet more blatant provocation, risks losing that appearance of reasonable forbearing.
But holding back, even when clearly the offended party, gives ammunition to their diplomatic efforts to peel systems away from League support.

I thought I originally saw a line drive coming from RFC. I thought that in Beowulf's secession, they'd absorb lots of the dismembered states into a new polity with Beowulf as the new seat of government. Decapitate the gorilla as the seat of government, and seat the wolf. Possible?

Or would that be too much of a logistics problem?

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Bill Woods wrote:What would that even mean? They could order the dismantling of the SLN's ships, backed by the threat "or else we'll do it for you", but the League itself -- how? Demand that the Assembly passes a bill dissolving the League? How could it be enforced? How would the GA prevent hundreds of systems from covertly forming an alliance to destroy the Manties?

But why would they want to? It's the Mandarins on Earth that are determined to fight in order to avoid the collapse of their system. With them no longer issuing the orders I think the other systems would be much more amendable to reason--and they have no reason to pursue the war.

Jonathan_S wrote:A bit of "nobody picked on my brother but me" combined with fear that if the GA was that high-handed now they might decide to be that high-handed against any individual planetary government.
(And Sigs kind of already touched on this)

That can cause people, and current planetary governments, to band together and build up to the point where, at minimum, the GA physically can't do the same to them. And at worst, they'll overshoot and be pushed by public opinion (or rabble rousing) into using the milataries they've built up to firmly show the GA that they can't meddle with them. (After if you've kept the public whipped up enough to fully support a multi-decade military build-up in response to the dismantling of the League, it's pretty hard to turn around and tell them "hey, it's all good now we're powerful enough they'll never screw with us. Everybody can finally calm down)


I feel Manticore needs to bend over backwards to always seem the reasonable party, and the one offended against, so that the vast majority of the League members are comfortable that if they don't go far out of their way to provoke Manticore or the GA that they have nothing to fear from them. Retaliating to Raging Justice by raiding the Sol system, or even major military shipyards, without yet more blatant provocation, risks losing that appearance of reasonable forbearing.
But holding back, even when clearly the offended party, gives ammunition to their diplomatic efforts to peel systems away from League support.

Nice post Jonathan. I absolutely agree.

With one caveat. If the RMN does enter Solarian space, they should go loaded for bear - er gorilla. Sort of like the old caveat - 'don't pull a weapon unless you are prepared to use it.'

The RMN destroying Solarian infrastructure is a waste of effort and the return is negligible against the risk - of unifying the League.


I actually like the plan that kzt proposed in one of these threads. Why not? Fighting lots of peripheral skirmishes and losing men is insane, if you look into the eyes of the widows and widowers and their families. Didn't Theisman tell Honor that her responsibility was to her own people?

Yet, I guess millions of civilians (if the League unites) outweighs a few hundred thousand military lives.

cthia wrote:I thought I originally saw a line drive coming from RFC. I thought that in Beowulf's secession, they'd absorb lots of the dismembered states into a new polity with Beowulf as the new seat of government. Decapitate the gorilla as the seat of government, and seat the wolf. Possible?

Or would that be too much of a logistics problem?

Beowulf has a number of daughter colonies, I bet they all join together, that will be one faction. Maya will be another. The RF will either be a third faction or they may try to each become a separate faction. Be interesting to see how the rest of them disintegrate and reform.

I will probably regret this but here goes: I can see a scenario where it makes sense for the RMN to be fighting in Solarian space, and lay a big whupping on one of the SLN nodal shipyards/repair yards, etc., just not Sol, and that would be to escalate against the Meyers system at a "we don't care about collateral damage" level, taking out a significant chunk of Tenth Fleet in the process. At that point a new ally has paid a heavy price, RMN blood has been shed and there is NO way that Henke, Winton, or Honor is going to leave the SLN with any ships larger than maybe the heavy cruiser leave within a couple of hundred light years in that sector after that.

Thoughts?

So the league can destroy a good chunk of an RMN fleet. What the the other thousand or so league members do after you blow up 20 or 30 random systems in response to getting their ass kicked by the SLN while attacking SL systems?

What happens next? How does this end?

I wish to make the point that, whether or not the GA demands the SL's breakup or not, that it is going to happen anyway.

The Mesan Alignment's plans are already well in place to cause the League to break up. Also the Alignment were taking advantage of the fissure lines (which they had helped create) that already existed within the SL. The League is already primed to fall apart anyway.

Finally, in the Guide to the Honorverse in More than Honor David Weber himself referred to this situation. He described it as coming to the end of a golden age and, if I remember his words correctly;

'...The start of a war which, before the end of it, would see practically the entire human settled space choosing sides.'

.
(My apologies for it not being a direct quote but I do not have my copy of More than Honor to hand & it has been some time since I read it last).

kzt wrote:So the league can destroy a good chunk of an RMN fleet. What the the other thousand or so league members do after you blow up 20 or 30 random systems in response to getting their ass kicked by the SLN while attacking SL systems?

What happens next? How does this end?

Not thinking that they go after 20-30 random systems. I was thinking more along the lines of taking out the nodal basing (we're told there are 12 main shipyards?) where the attacking forces originate/might be repaired, similar to the attacks on Hancock or Grendelsbane by the Haven forces. Sort of like saying "okay we left you enough fly swatters to do the coast guard thing and keep your systems safe, but it will be a cold day in hell before you'll base and deploy battle cruisers or bigger in this neck of the galactic ocean again".