Attacking Earth

I think one of the problems that has been mentioned to some degree is the failure rate of the enhancements. Mensa has culled entire lines due to various problems that have cropped up.

I think it has also been pointed out that with out environmental pressures giving survival benefits to the genetic enhancements they would fade away.

Remember Honor may be a genie but she is still well with in normal human potential range in her abilities.

pnakasone wrote:Mensa has culled entire

Yes, MENSA is a pathetic organization here on earth, but lets not confuse their stupidity with the Honorverse's MALIGN.

cthia wrote:And before anyone dumbfounds me and asks "What is wrong with ushering in a new age of biological species?" ...

Because we are not Gods! Creating life forms is a God's purview. Since many of you don't believe in the concept of a God, then why insist on acting like one? Unless you think that life was initially created by mindless arrogant humans in the backwoods of the galaxy???

Okay, could you please try this again, but without appeals to religion?

What the alignment wants to do is to broaden the definition of what "human" means. Nothing more, nothing less, and in case you haven't noticed, that definition has been altered a lot over the years.

The problem is that there's a level to hypocrisy to these arguments that is hard to swallow. Why is it acceptable to alter the genome to allow humans to survive on a high gravity or high radiation planet? Why is it acceptable to triple or quadruple the human lifespan? Are these not fundamental changes in humanity?

And while we're on the subject of Prolong: The galaxy still hasn't properly adapted to its existence. Human cultures still operate on a 20 to 30 year cycle. Are you telling me that making that change was a safe thing to do? That there's no way that that won't blow up in our collective faces at some point?

It is arrogant to think you can safely (intrinsically safe) create a new species. It is unrealistic that that species may never come into opposition to humankind.

Oh, so what you're saying is that it's acceptable to create something new only if it will forever be subservient to mankind?

Also, last I checked, there are plenty of children that have caused trouble for their parents, even going so far as to kill them. Hasn't stopped anyone from having kids though.

It is insane to have one day created your own demise.

Prove that Prolong isn't that demise.

Beowulf recognizes the god-complex. A defect running rampant in the Detweiler line at the genetic level.

Please cite textual evidence to that effect. I want the actual line where an actual Beowulfan character actually says that.

drothgery wrote:Erm... they also genetically engineered their colonists. And I suspect that Web (no geneticist or biologist) was (probably unintentionally) underplaying the degree of genetic manipulation they did.

Cite?

I don't doubt there is one, but I'd like to read it in context, and can't find it.

cthia wrote:At any rate, this pivot point is considered the Netherworld of research. There are many Demons lurking on the other side. Detweiler sticks his toes inside and awaits by the door as he drives his lines on, in trial and error research, each line taking more risk and only after centuries, passing what's deemed "good" and "safe" upstream. My friends say that many in the forum seem to be ignorant of the atrocities of genetic research at the "microscopic" level. It is like the chicken that we eat in the supermarkets, yet are completely ignorant of the horrible conditions that produced the chicken in the package. Also, what I gathered, is that these meddling procedures may not bear erroneous fruit until decades or centuries long after they have been introduced into humanity. (Which is why Detweiler keeps he and his outside of immediate introduction and experimentation) Genetic tampering is not just akin to speeding up the "intrinsically safe" slow process of evolution but it does it along an unnatural, unclear, risky and deviant line of sight.

Evolution isn't intrinsically safe either. There is no guarantee that a given species, secure in its niche, will be able to continue in that niche if a different species moves in.

And again: In the Honorverse, there have been several genetic alterations that have already been sanctioned by the Beowulf establishment. In most cases (freed slaves, for example), they have no choice but to sanction them, since it would be rather immoral to forcibly neuter any freed slave just because their genome hasn't been declared safe yet.

I can't believe, that certain forumites who I have intimate knowledge of their disbelief in religious tolerance - and many of the reasons they point to are the religious atrocities associated with - are OTOH insensitive, tolerant and totally oblivious to the fact that the MA are much worse than any of Earth's cult leaders and religious fanatics!

All a matter of upbringing, I guess. Personally, I find the notion that there is such a thing as a static form of humanity that needs to be protected and cherished to be ridiculous.

Your thoughts that MA experiments carried out in seclusion being optimum and would lead to acceptance is in error. Mankind will never, can never accept the MAs form of genetic tampering BECAUSE... THERE WILL NEVER BE A GUARANTEE THAT THEY WILL REMAIN SECLUDED THUS SEGREGATED FROM HUMANKIND! There is no "Checkpoint Charlie" of a fence that can be emplaced around MA space. Why is this so important? Glad you asked.

It's not often that one finds such a pure example of race-based hatred and intolerance.

And to repeat: Why is what the Alignment does evil? Why is Prolong good? Are you going to tell us all that Prolong came into being fully formed, without false starts and unsuccessful treatments along the way? Are you going to tell us that it's a very definitely safe thing to do? Or that it won't cause fundamental changes in human behaviour? That it is not "playing god", despite god's will clearly showing that about 80 years is enough time on Earth for a human being?

That is a rather naive, irresponsible and misguided stance. First off, the disconnect is what is pinned up on the Billboard itself. Call a spade a spade unless it isn't. And, ushering in a new age of humanity ISN'T what the MA are doing. They are ushering in a new age of nonhuman - "We are ushering in a new age of biological species!"

Are they? No, seriously, are they? Has anyone ever stated this in the text, in those terms?

The Detweilers and Anisimovnas and all the other Alignment people we've met are very clearly, very recognizably human. They're not aliens, and they haven't shown any desire to be so radically different as to no longer be human.

Mankind should still care even if the MA went off in some virgin corner of the galaxy. They are not going to stay in their corner of the galaxy. They have stated themselves of their plans to infiltrate society - that can't be done unless there is mingling of the species! Unless you think that the MA are controlling the who and the what of their plans to marry and have coitus interruptus? Humanity at large, has a right to remain satisfied with being "human." Upgrades in the form of Beowulfan code is totally different from an entirely new species.

No, it isn't, but I wouldn't expect you to understand this.

Also, again with the racism! Seriously, are your arguments drawn from some southern slaver's pamphlet about how the negro should not be allowed to mix with the white or something?

Trying to equate this with the same prejudices of Earth today regarding the intermingling of the races is absurd. In that, there is no inherent danger to mankind. Humanity at large, has a right to keep its genetic lines clean of the point beyond "certain human" affects.

And what's the inherent danger in letting genetically engineered humans mingle with natural ones? Not on a "we know genemod A conflicts with genemod B" sort of way, but on a philosophical basis?

Would you want a son or daughter or grand daughter or niece to be born with some absurd deviation in normal human evolutionary development that may seem monstrous to you and the society in which you live simply because of errant inhuman DNA?

No, I would not mind inhuman offspring.

cthia wrote:

The E wrote:To see an american conservative express a deeply held belief that what a distant, unaccountable government does is best for everyone is incredibly hilarious.

If you think that I'm a conservative, you should fire your research assistant pronto.

Oh, I'm sorry, I must have missed the posts of yours that show sympathy for liberal politics under all the conservative christian stuff.

Not best for everyone E., but in the best interest of mankind.

I'm curious what you think the difference is.

To hear someone who is religiously intolerant give his stamp of approval for a cult is insane.

Now, calling me a conservative while you are the one afraid to invest in "faith" is what is hilarious.

.

I am a transhumanist. I do believe that we must use technology and science to constantly improve our lives, and I do not recognize the human genome as sacrosanct in this regard. Any artificial limit on research needs to be questioned and checked constantly before it turns into quasi-religious dogma (as the Beowulf code has), and that is all I'm doing here.

So, to restate my position:
1. I do believe that the Alignment's ultimate, non-childish goals are good for mankind.
2. Beowulf has become a single point of failure for genetical research; if they miss anything, it will have disproportionate results
3. Human genetic engineering is a very mature science (see the various approved genemods out there). There aren't a lot of hidden traps in there anymore.
4. There's a basic hypocricy to the notion that we cannot play god, yet are accepting of something as radical as Prolong.

The MAlign is evil because of their methods and some of their goals. Destruction of Beowulf and domination over mankind.



That being said, there is nothing inherently evil or wrong about voluntary and careful enhancement/uplift of the human genome. The qualifiers are rather important.
Beowulf doesn't object to certain forms of human genetic enhancement either - but Beowulf's Code has limitations on how much you do and where you go.


It could be argued that the Code could or should be less restrictive than it is in some aspects, but I don't think it's unreasonable to require that any genetic enhancement must be voluntary and carefully and cautiously done/developed.
But loosing the Code up could be accomplished with a good, long term, PR campaign.

Kytheros wrote:But loosing the Code up could be accomplished with a good, long term, PR campaign.

Like the one that's likely been happening on the Renaissance Factor worlds?

The E wrote:And to repeat: Why is what the Alignment does evil?

[blink]
Uh, Slavery? Killing millions of people, and causing many many millions more to die? The amount of human misery the Malign is responsible for, directly and indirectly, consciously and deliberately, is monstrous.
"By their fruits ye shall know them."

Bill Woods wrote:

The E wrote:And to repeat: Why is what the Alignment does evil?

[blink]
Uh, Slavery? Killing millions of people, and causing many many millions more to die? The amount of human misery the Malign is responsible for, directly and indirectly, consciously and deliberately, is monstrous.
"By their fruits ye shall know them."

And that's just macroscopically.

Microscopically, it bOgGleS the mInD.


Just when I find it so very difficult to believe that so many people could follow a David Koresh, I run into the same naive thinking in a forum.

People that have that type of logic disconnect should tie a string around their finger to stay away from Compounds.