What happens if the GA demands the SL breakup?

The time to attack is when you have the advantage. The GA should take the 30 main worlds including Earth. After that the others will surrender. Waiting is the game of fools, talk means they get to work a way to get around your weapons and systems. Attack now would be my 2 cents.

SharkHunter wrote:Big question is "demands from who?" the Mandarins? they are unelected bureaucrats with a lot of power because of position. Can't give direct orders to the SLN, just the folks who run the SLN. Demands from Kingsford (Fleet Admiral...) who has no authority to surrender anything except his ships and crews? the assembly? legislators that can't surrender their planets. That's probably executive plus populace under threat of bombardment from orbit for each star system, and I don't see the GA attempting that.

That's why the Solarian League as "coherent government" is an unmanageable mess. About the best the GA can do is find sector governors and make deals, which they'll do anyway.

The SL is made up of independent governments. There are no sector governors for the SL itself, just for non-member clients.

Sigs wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:
But why would they want to? It's the Mandarins on Earth that are determined to fight in order to avoid the collapse of their system. With them no longer issuing the orders I think the other systems would be much more amendable to reason--and they have no reason to pursue the war.

Unless the actions in question bring credibility to the claim that Manticore and Haven have Imperialistic ambitions. Doing something that puts credibility to that claim in the eyes of the individual league members might ultimately force them together. They might not like the League a whole lot but in the face of uncertainty they may decide the League is preferable to being conquered by Manticore and Haven.

Note that my suggestion had no suggestion of seizing territory. Manticore must specifically not take any territory.

Weird Harold wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:But why would they want to? It's the Mandarins on Earth that are determined to fight in order to avoid the collapse of their system. With them no longer issuing the orders I think the other systems would be much more amendable to reason--and they have no reason to pursue the war.

You could replace "Mandarins on Earth" with "Saddam Hussein" and get a good approximation of the result. How has "regime change" worked out in Iraq?

It's made a mess of Iraq but Iraq isn't a threat to anyone else at this point.

Weird Harold wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:But why would they want to? It's the Mandarins on Earth that are determined to fight in order to avoid the collapse of their system. With them no longer issuing the orders I think the other systems would be much more amendable to reason--and they have no reason to pursue the war.

You could replace "Mandarins on Earth" with "Saddam Hussein" and get a good approximation of the result. How has "regime change" worked out in Iraq?

It did not work out because nobody really planned for regime change. American (& British) officials just blithely expected the Iraqis to become democratic overnight. They also created a power vacuum by completely disbanding Saddam Hussein's armed & security forces, forcing thousands of young men onto the streets & into the arms of the waiting insurgents. Then, when anybody tried arguing for more troops to cope with the deteriorating situation on the ground they tended to sacked by Donald Rumsfeld for daring to question his judgment.

This situation is different. For one thing everybody, (including the League itself) keeps forgetting that it is a League, not a star nation, (although it keeps acting like one). Secondly, there is also the point each of the member systems are sovereign star nations with their own government. Yes there would be disruption but there would also be opportunities as well, especially for those systems, (particularly in the Shell) that have been held back by the Solarian League.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:You could replace "Mandarins on Earth" with "Saddam Hussein" and get a good approximation of the result. How has "regime change" worked out in Iraq?

It's made a mess of Iraq but Iraq isn't a threat to anyone else at this point.

I disagree. Iraq is in a state of upheaval. The only constant is that radical islam terrorists still exist in Iraq and are as near as I can see the most powerful group in Iraq. I dread the day that Iraq stabilizes with the Taliban, Isis, or "Muslim brotherhood" in change.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Sigs wrote:Unless the actions in question bring credibility to the claim that Manticore and Haven have Imperialistic ambitions. Doing something that puts credibility to that claim in the eyes of the individual league members might ultimately force them together. They might not like the League a whole lot but in the face of uncertainty they may decide the League is preferable to being conquered by Manticore and Haven.

Note that my suggestion had no suggestion of seizing territory. Manticore must specifically not take any territory.

The appearance would be important.If the GA attacks Earth, captures the Mandarins they will look every bit the imperialists that the Mandarins claimed they were. The League might collapse but the members would see the GA as a threat and might unite in to fight the GA because they wouldn't know their true intentions.

Their actions would be viewed through a filter of fears rather than logic. To most of the full members, the league is not perfect but it will be preferable to an obviously imperialistic GA.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
You could replace "Mandarins on Earth" with "Saddam Hussein" and get a good approximation of the result. How has "regime change" worked out in Iraq?

It's made a mess of Iraq but Iraq isn't a threat to anyone else at this point.

I would disagree, Iraq is more of a threat to the world now than it was 14 years ago.

kzt wrote:One the definitions of diplomacy is "the art of saying 'nice doggie' while slowly reaching for a rock". And when you are outnumbered a thousand to one, convincing them that they need to fight you will end badly.

But if it is a pack of limping old dogs with more snarl than bite one is dealing with then no words are needed unless the words are, "GO ON! GIT!!" In that instance the "whole is LESSER than the sum of its parts"

What happens if the GA demands the SL breakup?

What happens if Singapore demands the EU breakup?

Britain has a party(and anyone else with a brain), the EU tells Singapore to piss up a rope.

The EU/SL are the same. Both ruled by unelected bureaucrats. Get this, the EU has 4, different unelected "presidents". The EU has a "parliament", also 100% unelected, that has no authority at all to pass legislation. Democracy in Europe is dead. 4 Presidents. Guaranteed to be deadlocked or be able to be bought off to be deadlocked on any real issue that might prune the bureaucrat elitists who all think they know better than anyone else how to rule(with them on top of course) properly.

The big established corporations love it as it stiffles the small business who all create the innovations and new technology who has to pore over Millions of pages of regulations to break into their field of mercantile.

Look no further than odorless toilets. They were invented a long time ago, but due to huge corporations who have the market sown up, who have to depreciate their sunk cost into old obsolete toilets, we can't even buy one. How are they odorless? The fan ties to the POT itself instead of the room. Thus, all the fumes stay in the crapper or go up the chimney instead of through your clothes and into the room. I installed one in a friends RV and on my boat. Oh my, the "new" invention is wonderful. Maybe in another 100 years people will start building better toilets... I won't hold my breath though.