Attacking Earth

I seriously doubt that the Grand Alliance will attack Earth, because the powers that be--Elizabeth Winton, Eloise Pritchart, Benjamin Mayhew, Chyang Benton-Ramirez, Honor Alexander-Harrington, Thomas Theisman, Alfredo Yu, Jacques Benton-Ramirez y Chu, et al.--know who their enemy is and possess extremely accurate target discrimination.

The GA has to look at what the worst possible out come of the them successfully attacking earth which is it becoming a rallying cry that will cause the SL to hold together. Do they really want to risk that? If the SL can do that the GA is doomed.

Loren Pechtel wrote:The value in attacking Earth is far more in throwing a crate of eggs in the face of the mandarins. The more you can make the Solarian League systems realize that the mandarins are the problem the faster the league breaks up.

Yeah, sure, but the thing is that everyone knows this already. The fact that the League is deeply dysfunctional and arguably no longer serving its purpose is the reason why it's breaking up now, it doesn't take an attack on Earth to hammer that point home. If anything, letting the Mandarins mismanage their way deeper into crisis will do more to hasten the League's downfall than any attack on any planet will.

The E wrote:Yeah, sure, but the thing is that everyone knows this already. The fact that the League is deeply dysfunctional and arguably no longer serving its purpose is the reason why it's breaking up now, it doesn't take an attack on Earth to hammer that point home. If anything, letting the Mandarins mismanage their way deeper into crisis will do more to hasten the League's downfall than any attack on any planet will.

Everybody is a gross exaggeration. People who pay attention and are not ideologically blinded might know it, but how many are there? For example, as recently as a few years ago supposedly smart people where happily praising socialism in Venezuela as a great success, despite the fact "everybody knows" that every socialist government ends up just where Venezuela is fast going today. Admittedly the rest of them didn't manage it while sitting on the worlds largest supply of oil like Venezuela has, but hey, they are over achievers.

Anyhow, that is why my suggestion was to arrange to destroy the entire SLN in one battle, then arrest the entire top tier or 3 of the SL government as a follow up. It's pretty hard to cover that up. It probably would be counter-productive, but it would be pretty spectacular.

We do not know how the GA will react to the attack on Beowulf and the resulting death and destruction. Beowulf may act independently using it's Survey ships.

When things get worse, I can see more tech transfers to the League from the MA- perhaps to include an outright alliance.

The MA plan all along was to have haven sector blow up the SL. And that is exactly what they are doing. Why would they want to stop that?

kzt wrote:Anyhow, that is why my suggestion was to arrange to destroy the entire SLN in one battle, then arrest the entire top tier or 3 of the SL government as a follow up. It's pretty hard to cover that up. It probably would be counter-productive, but it would be pretty spectacular.

Sure, it's hard to cover up, but what sort of message does it send to the galaxy at large? That Manticore and the GA are a force for good, or that Manticore and the GA are dangerous external threats able and willing to wreak havoc on any star nation that crosses them?

All the GA rhetoric keeps pointing out that the most devastating attack of the war so far was not the work of the SLN. The losses directly attributed to hostile action by League forces are strictly limited; there is no justification for going to the League's throat over them.

No, I think the best strategy for the GA is to sit back and watch the League disintegrate on its own while standing ready to deal with the fallout. It can't be stressed enough that the last thing the GA needs at this stage is to reinforce the notion that they're potential conquerors and aggressors.

kzt wrote:The MA plan all along was to have haven sector blow up the SL. And that is exactly what they are doing. Why would they want to stop that?

The 600 year old MA plan was to have the SL disintegrate.

The MA plan as of 50 years ago was to have manticore and haven fight each other and the winner go up against the SL, causing that disintegration.

The GA is about to throw a "'spanner' on the main drive buss bar" of that plan.

darrell wrote:

kzt wrote:The MA plan all along was to have haven sector blow up the SL. And that is exactly what they are doing. Why would they want to stop that?

The 600 year old MA plan was to have the SL disintegrate.

The MA plan as of 50 years ago was to have manticore and haven fight each other and the winner go up against the SL, causing that disintegration.

The GA is about to throw a "'spanner' on the main drive buss bar" of that plan.

I think the MAlign plan 50-100 years ago was for Haven to win. They certainly did not anticipate Manticore's buildup succeeding, nor did they anticipate Pierre's coup and subsequent reforms.

I'm not sure whether DuQuesne was actually a MAlign agent, but the possibility hasn't been ruled out. His Plan, then, would have resulted in a ramshackle Haven stretching from Erewhon to Silesia and possibly what is currently Andermani space. Eventually, it would have come into conflict with OFS.

cthia wrote:I'd employ a bit more caution - one that's less presumptuous, and amend that to 'There's no way using the Sharks and Ghosts on an attack on Earth furthers the Alignment's [original] goals.'

The MAlign didn't intend for their previous-to-current game plan to produce a space born virus partly and specifically engineered just for them in the form of this "GA."

The E wrote:But it's not like the creation of the Grand Alliance has significantly derailed the Alignment's plans either. There are still facets of the overall strategy that are unknown to the GA and can still play their part.

Also, remember that the Alignment as a whole and the Detweilers in particular aren't stupid. While they haven't achieved their desired optimum outcome, their minimal goals are met and the plans can be adjusted to account for it.

Whaa? Derail? Are you kidding me? The GA literally can't get bearings to the astrogators fast enough to plug into their hyper drives and pay them a visit and "obliterate" them! How's that for derailing the plans - by attritively killing the planners?

Are their minimal goals met - absolutely? SEE BELOW.

cthia wrote:To the MAlign this (GA) stands for "Grand Alpha" type of a virus threatening to infect their plans. A GA that has unified itself against an entity that it (GA) is screaming DOES EXIST and indirectly murdered millions of its own citizens to boot. A GA that is screaming at the galaxy at large and has accused the League of being puppet-turned-taskmasters of an unwitting accomplice to more of these deaths. A GA that will indeed supersede the very same problem that they have planned for centuries to eliminate. As it is, only the effective name will change on the Malign's Certificate of Problems from "Solarian League" to "GA" - a more powerful and focused problem!

E wrote:And?

You do realize that the uncovering and dissolution of a grand conspiracy based on Mesa was always part of the Alignments plans, yes?

Yes, a plan born in the spirit of a misdirection. A plan that was cancelled out when the MAlign placed Manticore downwind of their existence!

"And?" "And?" Are you kidding, again?

Never trust a General who "sits" at the War Table. STAND, so you can get a better view of the battlefield and better understand the Art of War. SEE BELOW.

cthia wrote:I don't think it unreasonable that the MAlignment's original plan and timeline may have changed. There is now one big hawking horsefly in the soup by the name of the GA - WHO IS HOT ON THEIR HEELS ASSISTED BY A DEFECTOR.

E wrote:A defector who only knows a small part of the whole plan. "Hot on their heels" is pushing it, considering that noone at this points knows where Darius is.

There exists many levels of "Hot on the heels." Just becoming aware of an enemy that has remained "unknown" and "unseen" for mindless centuries from everyone while everyone else still doubts them, translates into "intelligently hot on their heels." But I'll technically yield this point.

cthia wrote:Sure, the MAlign's original plans were to eliminate the League. But they also wanted to whittle down the other two super powers that have been giving them trouble as well. They didn't exactly anticipate the particular flavor of backfire coming out of the back tailpipe of that truck of an explosion!

E wrote:Again, and? Sure, the alignment would have preferred to have Beowulf's staunchest allies all dead and gone, but it's not like they need them to be dead right now. There are several ways in which the existence of the GA can even be used to further the Alignment's goals; Do you seriously believe that the Alignment is stupid enough to believe that one could plot the downfall of several empires years in advance without something, somewhere, going nonlinear?

"And," again? Now, surely you jest!

They may not need them to be dead right now. But if an opportunity to destroy them by indirect means is present, and whereby the chance of any other opportunity and means to destroy them may never arise or present itself in time may be enough of a reason in itself to "order up a contingent."

And no, I don't think the MAlign are stupid - insane is another question - as most megalomaniacs who are hell bent at controlling human kind and playing god, are quickly approaching insanity. You can't allow a society where everyone has the inherent mindset of a Hitler - where they are genengineering baby hitlers!

What is left in the wake of the Malign's own meddling are more powerful than the US and its allied powers vs Germany! Sure, the MAlign could just lay low and go, "Uh oh what have we created. What have we done?" And allow the GA to discover and destroy them. They've already shown that they cannot control the abominations that may become the fruit of their genetic tampering - it has already produced an unforeseen and very unpredictable and very powerful virus in the form of the "GA."

And as far as there being other ways that the Alignment can use the GA to further their goals, I agree, and was just intimating what I, and a few others, think are one of them. Set up one final scenario to cause your enemies to kill each other. Why not draw that last bit of blood out of that dying SLN of a turnip and siphon off the remaining amount of usefulness out of them. "We can't have them die before they hurt our new, and more purposed, enemy."

Because I don't think the MAlign is stupid is why I think this plan would appeal to them. And because the landscape has changed quite a bit - since Oyster Bay.

cthia wrote:I can't envision how the cause$effect of their past meddling hasn't already changed the scope of their plans. It seems that the MAlign has made it worse for themselves now. They have an even more powerful entity standing in their way - and gunning for them. They can see the GA coming for them, like the Union army slowly crossing the river on a ferry to get to them. It is slow progress, but they are coming and will eventually cross the river.

E wrote:They can see them coming, yes.

Which means they have ample time to evade.

That's the point that you're missing. They are having to run now. When they fled Mesa, that was planned, staged. Now, the GA may force another relocation. May force them to show themselves - possibly expose themselves - they could get caught in the wake of their own fleeing hyper wash! My point is that things have drastically changed for the MAlign now. Whereas before they were hiding, now they may be running. Their cat of "we exist" is already out of the bag. To think that they have the same options as they previously enjoyed is idiotic. Things went very AWRY in their plans. SEE BELOW.

cthia wrote:It is correct, the MAlign presently doesn't have to do a thing but watch the trail of fireworks leading to the League's destruction but that isn't going to accomplish much by way of the very serious threat that has developed in their very near periphery.

E wrote:I get the feeling that you haven't really realized what the Alignment's strategic objectives are.

And I'm getting the feeling that you in turn, are failing to realize that the MAlign has made their own chances of ever realizing those objectives to be even smaller than when they decided that it was the League who is their biggest mountain. But oh no!, now, they have awakened an entity who is in addition to that, much more militarily powerful than the League with the formation of this GA, who ARE aware of them and who they have given great cause to HATE and want to DESTROY them because they have "gone and done" the one exactly wrong thing to do in these situations with an enemy, and made it PERSONAL. Quite personal! And also to millions of screaming treecats in their souls and in their Soul of Steel's soul.

E wrote:Basically, there are two major objectives. One, to create an environment in which humanity can explore its full potential via transhumanism. Two, to discredit Beowulf and its creed of not tinkering with "natural" humanity.

Objective One requires the primary enforcers of the Beowulf code (that is, the League, Manticore and Haven) to be made irrelevant. Killing the League is easy once you realize how fragile it is; Manticore and Haven can be steered towards neutralizing each other. Now, granted, that last part didn't work out as planned, but it's not a big deal: After all, any decent ideology needs something to compare itself to.

Objective Two is a very long term project, and it does require a few things. One is to increase the percentage of gengineered humans in the population and to put them in a position where baseline humans can accept them. Genetic slavery is a means to this end: By creating a population of people that are very clearly victims of crime, these genies are seen as sympathetic creatures; Not the scary brutes from old Final War documentaries, but the downtrodden of the galaxy, doomed from birth to a life of servitude. People want to see themselves as heroes, and there is little more heroic than to help in freeing the enslaved. Mesa provides that service.
Thus genetic slaves are highly visible, reminders that gengineering is only bad if done for morally corrupt purposes.
Ultimately though, Mesa has to die. It is a Dragon in need of slaying, it's a way to give everyone that nice feeling one gets when a war HAS to be fought and won that is clearly justified on universal moral grounds.
And once that's done, once the dust settles and the League is in tatters, out come the Renaissance Factor worlds teaching that gengineering is the tool to usher in a new age of humanity. Beowulf is discredited as it turns out that the millenia of holding back humanity were entirely unnecessary.

Notice how in that list of goals, the Alignment's survival doesn't appear?

Because Alignment survival is a joke, a wet dream at best. That's a given.

You do realize, that "ushering in a new age of humanity" that isn't human is the fear! Don't you? Never mind that it may seem that they've managed to get it right a few times. That's not the fear. It is the act of them playing with fire that is the fear. Manipulating genetic code in the manner that they do is deemed too risky. The MAlign, though they may be more knowledgeable and have successfully [maybe] pushed the limits (simply by trial and error and most probably a few really bad genetic mishaps that are simply unpublished) are NOT gods. They don't understand all of what is awaiting them down the road of a society that has no checks & balances and fences in place of genetic tampering. They cannot displace the atrocities forever set in the memories of the survivors of the Final Wars. The MAlign's entire mission statement is to introduce Helter Skelter within mankind. Insane actually, as they have already shown the dangers of wielding their powers. With their Hitler like (*Godwin's Law n/a) mission of galactic control of the "natural" direction of humankind.

Beowulf has to die? That is the kind of thinking expected to be unleashed on humankind from misengineered minds and a poster child for why it's a no no. The MAlign are MAlignant. Their steroidal tampering of the genetic code has already clearly affected and as a result has misaligned their cognizant functions.

They must clearly die!

And they themselves have broadcast their necessary death to the three most powerful navies in the galaxy at large and have caused them to coalesce to survive and to see their manipulators become genetically dead. In what way is that better for them and smells of their minimum goals being accomplished?

And exactly how can the MAlign create that environment if they are dead before the next crucial phase in their plans if they are fleshed out? How is simply changing the face of their biggest enemy with a different but more determined countenance, who have been slapped in the face by their very hand be acceptable?

And how are creating people, who are not just victims of crime incidentally - but victims of your crime a good thing? It is the same age old moral dilemma associated with Earth today "why can't we directly experiment on people in order to quickly benefit mankind with medical breakthroughs?" Yet we can't because it is morally wrong. It wasn't, isn't allowed even with volunteers. Heck, we argue about animals being used in certain experiments today. So, as long as that mindset is the norm, and it is. And as long as your most powerful mouthpieces against you are alive and well and enforce and share that same mindset, and they are and they do, then how is it ever going to work? To think it is, is insane.

The MAlign's thinking is...

define:
off-kilter : not in perfect balance : a bit askew, not aligned.

Mal aligned.


There would not be any prejudices against the slaves, but against the crime that made them so. It isn't the people, but the methods. Who knows what, still yet unseen, physical and emotional atrocities MAlign science has already introduced into humanity who are not yet aware of, or published, or has yet to manifest itself. Checks and balances are there for a profound purpose. Beowulf had a conscience. You cannot afford to allow the god-complex to thrive. It is everything foreign to humanity. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. There comes a point where your abilities out paces your understanding. (Which is the same idea wrapped up in "Star Trek's Prime Directive" in a nutshell.)

cthia wrote:Maybe the MAlign will sense an opportunity to clear up the few loose but compelling strings that have unraveled, with a disguised attack on Earth. Thus speeding up the demise of the League, along with the possibility of mortally wounding a very serious new opponent - two orgasms with one blow.

E wrote:How does an attack on Earth clear anything up?

See Below.

cthia wrote:Maybe that's exactly what will happen after RFC pens it. Maybe that scenario will be strategically the same yet play itself out in a different star system - like Beowulf.

One thing that nags at me. The MAlign aren't stupid. An ambitious centuries old plan that encompassed many generations would have seen the need for contingencies. Or at the very least, the need to be flexible. Or maybe it's arrogant to assume a plan with such a scope to not assume built in contingencies. Yet that thing that nags me about the lack of MAlign stupidity, is that sooner or later a confrontation between them and the GA is imminent. If the MAlign strikes first, they can control "first strike" opportunities and the "blindside." As opposed to sooner or later giving up the initiative.

IMO, another indirect attack against both the League and the GA seems logical for the little MIT inside of me. (MAlign In Training)

E wrote:The Alignment has so far done everything they needed to do with the smallest force possible. Why should they switch gears now? Why risk another attack run on the scale of Oyster Bay when everything they want to accomplish can be accomplished by more subtle means?

And as I tip my hat, that worked for them quite well I might add, thus far. A nudge here. A nudge there. A persuasive conversation here, one there, all amongst SLN simpletons. A nanite victim here. And one there. Worked quite well and was the correct tactic for them to emplace, before their opening strike on a significant appendage of humanity, a significant military appendage I might add. But the weather forecast has significantly changed for them...

1 There are no more clear skies - someone knows of their existence.

2. There are storm clouds forming and looks to be heading ashore on their lands.

3. There are not just simpletons by way of SLNs standing in their way now. There is an intelligent government not infected by corruption that has them in their sights now. And it is personal to them. Made personal by the MAlign.

4. And they are the premiere powers of the galaxy who have joined forces with the second and third premiere navy of the galaxy. How is that better than what was originally standing in their way?

What about the MAlign's options - Pre Oyster Bay vs Post Oyster Bay don't you get?

cthia wrote:The writing is on the wall. The confrontation is coming in one or two more books. Should the MAlign just sit around awaiting discovery and relinquish the inherent momentum of "initiative" associated with that first attack?

E wrote:The Alignment is a classical Banksian Outside Context Problem. It doesn't play by the same rules, hell, it doesn't play the same game as the forces arrayed against it. In a standup fight, the Alignment doesn't stand a chance, so why do you keep on assuming that the Alignment will agree to fight on the GA's terms?

That is what is fueling my thought. They shouldn't agree to fight on the GAs terms. (But that is the fight coming to a galaxy near them if they just do nothing and await for the Salamander's contact right off their starboard doorsteps!) And why should they? They have always fought with a lack of moral standing (duh - this whole lack of moral ethics R US!) They have subsisted on subterfuge, back stabbing, assassinations, machinations and elaborate mechanisms of indirect fighting and scapegoating, etc., etc. The MAlign has ultimately mastered the art of fighting without fighting.

But their meddling has had very serious and unforeseen ramifications. Cell automata's Game of Life is difficult to control. Other entities and situations form around you. Why should they NOT act to instigate another war between the dying League and the GA, if they could? Why not fire one remaining bullet in the League's head - to expedite their demise and possiblly eliminate their new, even stronger and focused enemy too? Especially while the opportunity still exists - where the galaxy at large are still ignorant. Where the League is still ignorant. Where the League's present leaders are desperate. Unless they think that revealing themselves to the Mandarins will cause them to get a clue and unify the League? In which case, suggests that that possibility already exists - which is even more of a reason to "be about it" already and ensure their demise! And weaken and possibly destroy this new, more dangerous threat.

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