Attacking Earth

kzt wrote:The drawback to this plan is that there is a lot of money, enough that most of it gets stolen and there is still enough to do the stuff the SL does. The SLN is not where most of the legitimate spending of the SL goes, and it is still huge.

An issue is that no one will want they are getting to be reduced so they cut even more from areas they can ill afford to due so.

Duckk wrote:

HB of CJ wrote:What if the Mesans attack Earth using the same stealth ed stuff they used on Manticore? They have done it before. Why not again? Then blame the whole attack on the Grand Alliance? Yikes!

And accomplishes...what, exactly? Prove that the mystery stealth ships that attacked Manticore really do exist? That whoever controls these ships have it out for the both of them? There's no way using the Sharks and Ghosts on an attack on Earth furthers the Alignment's goals.

I'd employ a bit more caution - one that's less presumptious, and ammend that to 'There's no way using the Sharks and Ghosts on an attack on Earth furthers the Alignment's [original] goals.'

The MAlign didn't intend for their previous-to-current game plan to produce a space born virus partly and specifically engineered just for them in the form of this "GA."

To the MAlign this (GA) stands for "Grand Alpha" type of a virus threatening to infect their plans. A GA that has unified itself against an entity that it (GA) is screaming DOES EXIST and indirectly murdered millions of its own citizens to boot. A GA that is screaming at the galaxy at large and has accussed the League of being puppet-turned-taskmasters of an unwitting accomplish to more of these deaths. A GA that will indeed supersede the very same problem that they have planned for centuries to eliminate. As it is, only the effective name will change on the Malign's Certificate of Problems from "Solarian League" to "GA" - a more powerful and focused problem!

I don't think it unreasonable that the MAlignment's original plan and timeline may have changed. There is now one big hawking horsefly in the soup by the name of the GA - WHO IS HOT ON THEIR HEELS ASSISTED BY A DEFECTOR.

Sure, the MAlign's original plans were to eliminate the League. But they also wanted to whittle down the other two super powers that have been giving them trouble as well. They didn't exactly anticipate the particular flavor of backfire coming out of the back tailpipe of that truck of an explosion!

I can't envision how the cause$effect of their past meddling hasn't already changed the scope of their plans. It seems that the MAlign has made it worse for themselves now. They have an even more powerful entity standing in their way - and gunning for them. They can see the GA coming for them, like the Union army slowly crossing the river on a ferry to get to them. It is slow progress, but they are coming and will eventually cross the river.

It is correct, the MAlign presently doesn't have to do a thing but watch the trail of fireworks leading to the League's destruction but that isn't going to accomplish much by way of the very serious threat that has developed in their very near periphery.

Maybe the MAlign will sense an opportunity to clear up the few loose but compelling strings that have unraveled, with a disguised attack on Earth. Thus speeding up the demise of the League, along with the possibility of mortally wounding a very serious new opponent - two orgasms with one blow.

Maybe that's exactly what will happen after RFC pens it. Maybe that scenario will be strategically the same yet play itself out in a different star system - like Beowulf.

One thing that nags at me. The MAlign aren't stupid. An ambitious centuries old plan that encompassed many generations would have seen the need for contingencies. Or at the very least, the need to be flexible. Or maybe it's arrogant to assume a plan with such a scope to not assume built in contingencies. Yet that thing that nags me about the lack of MAlign stupidity, is that sooner or later a confrontation between them and the GA is imminent. If the MAlign strikes first, they can control "first strike" opportunities and the "blindside." As opposed to sooner or later giving up the initiative.

IMO, another indirect attack against both the League and the GA seems logical for the little MIT inside of me. (MAlign In Training)

The writing is on the wall. The confrontation is coming in one or two more books. Should the MAlign just sit around awaiting discovery and relinquish the inherent momentum of "initiative" associated with that first attack?

I understand and even agree on all of the initial reasons against. But that had been before the soup that the MAlign cooked was complete - then found to be harboring a big, ugly, powerful and nasty horsefly swimming around "very much alive" right in the middle of it.

And the ship bearing "the cat out of the bag" has already sailed.

A strike against both the League and the GA is likely what will happen at Beowulf.

The MAlign strike against Sol and blaming Manticore for it runs the risk of giving the Mandarins something that the League will rally around and care about - and pull the League together, rather than letting or helping the League collapse.


It's entirely possible that the MAlign's worst-case contingency to deal with the GA post-League collapse is for a "rogue" element of League loyalists to create an anti-GA terrorist organization and/or EE violation GA worlds. Or maybe they won't be League Loyalists, but Peeps out for revenge, ala the People Navy in Exile.


The MAlign's timeline has absolutely changed - the introduction of Apollo meant that Manticore had to be stopped hard and fast. As a result, Oyster Bay got trimmed down to take out Manticore and Grayson, but not touch any of Haven's infrastructure, which was on the original target list for OB.
The plan has also changed. The MAlign plan to break the League originally (or at least, the oldest version we know about) was to use the People's Republic of Haven (under the Legislaturalists) against the League after they'd taken Manticore, and have both the Peeps and the League fight each other to annihilation and total collapse.

cthia wrote:I'd employ a bit more caution - one that's less presumptious, and ammend that to 'There's no way using the Sharks and Ghosts on an attack on Earth furthers the Alignment's [original] goals.'

The MAlign didn't intend for their previous-to-current game plan to produce a space born virus partly and specifically engineered just for them in the form of this "GA."

But it's not like the creation of the Grand Alliance has significantly derailed the Alignment's plans either. There are still facets of the overall strategy that are unknown to the GA and can still play their part.

Also, remember that the Alignment as a whole and the Detweilers in particular aren't stupid. While they haven't achieved their desired optimum outcome, their minimal goals are met and the plans can be adjusted to account for it.

To the MAlign this (GA) stands for "Grand Alpha" type of a virus threatening to infect their plans. A GA that has unified itself against an entity that it (GA) is screaming DOES EXIST and indirectly murdered millions of its own citizens to boot. A GA that is screaming at the galaxy at large and has accussed the League of being puppet-turned-taskmasters of an unwitting accomplish to more of these deaths. A GA that will indeed supersede the very same problem that they have planned for centuries to eliminate. As it is, only the effective name will change on the Malign's Certificate of Problems from "Solarian League" to "GA" - a more powerful and focused problem!

And?

You do realize that the uncovering and dissolution of a grand conspiracy based on Mesa was always part of the Alignments plans, yes?

I don't think it unreasonable that the MAlignment's original plan and timeline may have changed. There is now one big hawking horsefly in the soup by the name of the GA - WHO IS HOT ON THEIR HEELS ASSISTED BY A DEFECTOR.

A defector who only knows a small part of the whole plan. "Hot on their heels" is pushing it, considering that noone at this points knows where Darius is.

Sure, the MAlign's original plans were to eliminate the League. But they also wanted to whittle down the other two super powers that have been giving them trouble as well. They didn't exactly anticipate the particular flavor of backfire coming out of the back tailpipe of that truck of an explosion!

Again, and? Sure, the alignment would have preferred to have Beowulf's staunchest allies all dead and gone, but it's not like they need them to be dead right now. There are several ways in which the existence of the GA can even be used to further the Alignment's goals; Do you seriously believe that the Alignment is stupid enough to believe that one could plot the downfall of several empires years in advance without something, somewhere, going nonlinear?

I can't envision how the cause$effect of their past meddling hasn't already changed the scope of their plans. It seems that the MAlign has made it worse for themselves now. They have an even more powerful entity standing in their way - and gunning for them. They can see the GA coming for them, like the Union army slowly crossing the river on a ferry to get to them. It is slow progress, but they are coming and will eventually cross the river.

They can see them coming, yes.

Which means they have ample time to evade.

It is correct, the MAlign presently doesn't have to do a thing but watch the trail of fireworks leading to the League's destruction but that isn't going to accomplish much by way of the very serious threat that has developed in their very near periphery.

I get the feeling that you haven't really realized what the Alignment's strategic objectives are.

Basically, there are two major objectives. One, to create an environment in which humanity can explore its full potential via transhumanism. Two, to discredit Beowulf and its creed of not tinkering with "natural" humanity.

Objective One requires the primary enforcers of the Beowulf code (that is, the League, Manticore and Haven) to be made irrelevant. Killing the League is easy once you realize how fragile it is; Manticore and Haven can be steered towards neutralizing each other. Now, granted, that last part didn't work out as planned, but it's not a big deal: After all, any decent ideology needs something to compare itself to.

Objective Two is a very long term project, and it does require a few things. One is to increase the percentage of gengineered humans in the population and to put them in a position where baseline humans can accept them. Genetic slavery is a means to this end: By creating a population of people that are very clearly victims of crime, these genies are seen as sympathetic creatures; Not the scary brutes from old Final War documentaries, but the downtrodden of the galaxy, doomed from birth to a life of servitude. People want to see themselves as heroes, and there is little more heroic than to help in freeing the enslaved. Mesa provides that service.
Thus genetic slaves are highly visible, reminders that gengineering is only bad if done for morally corrupt purposes.
Ultimately though, Mesa has to die. It is a Dragon in need of slaying, it's a way to give everyone that nice feeling one gets when a war HAS to be fought and won that is clearly justified on universal moral grounds.
And once that's done, once the dust settles and the League is in tatters, out come the Renaissance Factor worlds teaching that gengineering is the tool to usher in a new age of humanity. Beowulf is discredited as it turns out that the millenia of holding back humanity were entirely unnecessary.

Notice how in that list of goals, the Alignment's survival doesn't appear?

Maybe the MAlign will sense an opportunity to clear up the few loose but compelling strings that have unraveled, with a disguised attack on Earth. Thus speeding up the demise of the League, along with the possibility of mortally wounding a very serious new opponent - two orgasms with one blow.

How does an attack on Earth clear anything up?

Maybe that's exactly what will happen after RFC pens it. Maybe that scenario will be strategically the same yet play itself out in a different star system - like Beowulf.

One thing that nags at me. The MAlign aren't stupid. An ambitious centuries old plan that encompassed many generations would have seen the need for contingencies. Or at the very least, the need to be flexible. Or maybe it's arrogant to assume a plan with such a scope to not assume built in contingencies. Yet that thing that nags me about the lack of MAlign stupidity, is that sooner or later a confrontation between them and the GA is imminent. If the MAlign strikes first, they can control "first strike" opportunities and the "blindside." As opposed to sooner or later giving up the initiative.

IMO, another indirect attack against both the League and the GA seems logical for the little MIT inside of me. (MAlign In Training)

The Alignment has so far done everything they needed to do with the smallest force possible. Why should they switch gears now? Why risk another attack run on the scale of Oyster Bay when everything they want to accomplish can be accomplished by more subtle means?

The writing is on the wall. The confrontation is coming in one or two more books. Should the MAlign just sit around awaiting discovery and relinquish the inherent momentum of "initiative" associated with that first attack?

The Alignment is a classical Banksian Outside Context Problem. It doesn't play by the same rules, hell, it doesn't play the same game as the forces arrayed against it. In a standup fight, the Alignment doesn't stand a chance, so why do you keep on assuming that the Alignment will agree to fight on the GA's terms?

pnakasone wrote:An issue is that no one will want they are getting to be reduced so they cut even more from areas they can ill afford to due so.

I suspect that after the summary executions of wreckers and criminals goes into effect after the coup that this won't be a problem....

kzt wrote:

pnakasone wrote:An issue is that no one will want they are getting to be reduced so they cut even more from areas they can ill afford to due so.

I suspect that after the summary executions of wreckers and criminals goes into effect after the coup that this won't be a problem....

The Mandarins are just very the tip of the iceberg. There are likely tens of thousands of corrupt officials threw out the entire SL bureaucracy spread across SL controlled space. The corruption is now so part of the system that any short of replacing the entire system will achieve nothing. Think of the current SL bureaucracy as an organized crime cartel with the Mandrins as the bosses.

pnakasone wrote:The Mandarins are just very the tip of the iceberg. There are likely tens of thousands of corrupt officials threw out the entire SL bureaucracy spread across SL controlled space. The corruption is now so part of the system that any short of replacing the entire system will achieve nothing. Think of the current SL bureaucracy as an organized crime cartel with the Mandrins as the bosses.

I suspect you could recruit enough SL Marines to do that. Though would suggest avoiding the ground around their high rise offices during this process.

AFAIK, that's only a serious issue if they speak Czech. And apparently Prague is in the Republic of Haven, so you're probably OK

kzt wrote:

pnakasone wrote:The Mandarins are just very the tip of the iceberg. There are likely tens of thousands of corrupt officials threw out the entire SL bureaucracy spread across SL controlled space. The corruption is now so part of the system that any short of replacing the entire system will achieve nothing. Think of the current SL bureaucracy as an organized crime cartel with the Mandrins as the bosses.

I suspect you could recruit enough SL Marines to do that. Though would suggest avoiding the ground around their high rise offices during this process.

Thoughtful insights everyone and thank you. I for one am eagerly awaiting the next book. Like already discussed, regarding Beowulf; "There will be a hot time in the old town tonight?"

PS: Just me but why does Linux Mint 17 have such a horrible spell check?

pnakasone wrote:Attacking Earth is pointless as the GA dos not have the ability to purge the SL government in a real effective manner of the coruption.

One thing is that in a real way the Mandarins are a symptom of the real problems of the SL. The corruption in bureaucracy is so deep that just removing the top layer will achieve nothing but new group of Mandarins rising to power in a few years. What the GA is doing is going after the money that supports the corruption.

The value in attacking Earth is far more in throwing a crate of eggs in the face of the mandarins. The more you can make the Solarian League systems realize that the mandarins are the problem the faster the league breaks up.