Personal laser weapons.

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Personal laser weapons.
by GabrialSagan » Tue May 17, 2016 10:22 pm
GabrialSagan Lieutenant (Senior Grade) Posts: 76 Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:57 pm	Is there a reason that no one in the 20th century PD uses a laser weapon for personal use? I can think of more than a few advantages a laser would have over a projectile weapon but the only laser weapons are shipborne weapons. What is the reason for that?
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by GabrialSagan » Tue May 17, 2016 10:22 pm

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Is there a reason that no one in the 20th century PD uses a laser weapon for personal use? I can think of more than a few advantages a laser would have over a projectile weapon but the only laser weapons are shipborne weapons. What is the reason for that?

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Re: Personal laser weapons.
by Theemile » Tue May 17, 2016 10:27 pm
Theemile Fleet Admiral Posts: 5241 Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH	GabrialSagan wrote:Is there a reason that no one in the 20th century PD uses a laser weapon for personal use? I can think of more than a few advantages a laser would have over a projectile weapon but the only laser weapons are shipborne weapons. What is the reason for that? I believe, from a technology standpoint, it's a power issue. But this series being Horatio Hornblower in Space originally, David probably decided he didn't want them in the storyline. But I've never officially seen why mentioned. ****** RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Personal laser weapons.

by Theemile » Tue May 17, 2016 10:27 pm

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GabrialSagan wrote:Is there a reason that no one in the 20th century PD uses a laser weapon for personal use? I can think of more than a few advantages a laser would have over a projectile weapon but the only laser weapons are shipborne weapons. What is the reason for that?

I believe, from a technology standpoint, it's a power issue. But this series being Horatio Hornblower in Space originally, David probably decided he didn't want them in the storyline. But I've never officially seen why mentioned.

******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."

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Re: Personal laser weapons.
by kzt » Tue May 17, 2016 10:46 pm
kzt Fleet Admiral Posts: 11360 Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm Location: Albuquerque, NM	GabrialSagan wrote:Is there a reason that no one in the 20th century PD uses a laser weapon for personal use? I can think of more than a few advantages a laser would have over a projectile weapon but the only laser weapons are shipborne weapons. What is the reason for that? In the honorverse, lasers means X-ray lasers. They have issues with penetrating atmosphere. Not to mention shooting a concentrated beam of ionizing radiation around has certain issues with bystanders.
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Re: Personal laser weapons.

by kzt » Tue May 17, 2016 10:46 pm

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GabrialSagan wrote:Is there a reason that no one in the 20th century PD uses a laser weapon for personal use? I can think of more than a few advantages a laser would have over a projectile weapon but the only laser weapons are shipborne weapons. What is the reason for that?

In the honorverse, lasers means X-ray lasers. They have issues with penetrating atmosphere. Not to mention shooting a concentrated beam of ionizing radiation around has certain issues with bystanders.

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Re: Personal laser weapons.
by Daryl » Tue May 17, 2016 10:58 pm
Daryl Fleet Admiral Posts: 3562 Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:57 am Location: Queensland Australia	Honorverse tech is the author's perogative, and I've noticed that he favours gravitics as his centrepiece tech. As to relative effectiveness of pulsars versus lasers, a single hand held pulsar dart has the muzzle energy of a 50 cal, and can be fired in a stream of 50 shots without recoil problems. A hand held laser would have to be pretty special to be more effective than a full auto Barrett with a 50 round magazine. RFC's universe, his rules. There have been discussions on many such topics, like computers 2k years hence not being much better than ours, wedges violating the 2nd law of thermodynamics, minimal tau at relativistic velocities, and fusion bottle energy densities. I just enjoy the story and his universe.
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Re: Personal laser weapons.

by Daryl » Tue May 17, 2016 10:58 pm

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Honorverse tech is the author's perogative, and I've noticed that he favours gravitics as his centrepiece tech.
As to relative effectiveness of pulsars versus lasers, a single hand held pulsar dart has the muzzle energy of a 50 cal, and can be fired in a stream of 50 shots without recoil problems. A hand held laser would have to be pretty special to be more effective than a full auto Barrett with a 50 round magazine.
RFC's universe, his rules. There have been discussions on many such topics, like computers 2k years hence not being much better than ours, wedges violating the 2nd law of thermodynamics, minimal tau at relativistic velocities, and fusion bottle energy densities. I just enjoy the story and his universe.

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Re: Personal laser weapons.
by pnakasone » Tue May 17, 2016 11:05 pm
pnakasone Captain of the List Posts: 402 Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:21 pm	I think hand held laser weapons where mentioned as possible but the advantages of them never out weighed the disadvantages. What I think is that compared to pulsar weapons they need a lot of energy to fire. For the amount of energy need to fire a hand held laser you can fire several pulsar bolts. Pulsar bolt also come in a variety of types for various uses.
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Re: Personal laser weapons.

by pnakasone » Tue May 17, 2016 11:05 pm

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I think hand held laser weapons where mentioned as possible but the advantages of them never out weighed the disadvantages.

What I think is that compared to pulsar weapons they need a lot of energy to fire. For the amount of energy need to fire a hand held laser you can fire several pulsar bolts. Pulsar bolt also come in a variety of types for various uses.

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Re: Personal laser weapons.
by Fireflair » Tue May 17, 2016 11:06 pm
Fireflair Captain of the List Posts: 591 Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:23 pm	The power struggle is probably the easiest answer, though as noted, it's the Mad Wizard's universe and he can do what he wants. Even with ultra dense power sources to reduce the size of the power source, a laser takes a fair amount of energy to be useful. And at low power levels is easily defeated. Reflective surfaces, etc. More over, lasers degrade quickly in atmosphere. Cohesion, range and destructive capability fall off quickly. We could get into the math, but I suspect that it was simpler for MWW to dismiss lasers and retain a higher energy kinetic weapon. The kinetic energy of the darts is more than destructive enough to accomplish the tasks likely to be needed. They also scale up relatively easily when you start considering tribarrels and the like.
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Re: Personal laser weapons.

by Fireflair » Tue May 17, 2016 11:06 pm

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The power struggle is probably the easiest answer, though as noted, it's the Mad Wizard's universe and he can do what he wants.

Even with ultra dense power sources to reduce the size of the power source, a laser takes a fair amount of energy to be useful. And at low power levels is easily defeated. Reflective surfaces, etc. More over, lasers degrade quickly in atmosphere. Cohesion, range and destructive capability fall off quickly.

We could get into the math, but I suspect that it was simpler for MWW to dismiss lasers and retain a higher energy kinetic weapon.

The kinetic energy of the darts is more than destructive enough to accomplish the tasks likely to be needed. They also scale up relatively easily when you start considering tribarrels and the like.

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Re: Personal laser weapons.
by pnakasone » Tue May 17, 2016 11:16 pm
pnakasone Captain of the List Posts: 402 Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:21 pm	Daryl wrote:Honorverse tech is the author's perogative, and I've noticed that he favours gravitics as his centrepiece tech. RFC's universe, his rules. There have been discussions on many such topics, like computers 2k years hence not being much better than ours, wedges violating the 2nd law of thermodynamics, minimal tau at relativistic velocities, and fusion bottle energy densities. I just enjoy the story and his universe. When it comes to computer tech SciFi creators have had always had a hard time keeping them futuristic at same time as feeling realistic to casual readers and watchers. The Honorvurse being a long runner has suffered from both technology and science marching on.
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Re: Personal laser weapons.

by pnakasone » Tue May 17, 2016 11:16 pm

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Daryl wrote:Honorverse tech is the author's perogative, and I've noticed that he favours gravitics as his centrepiece tech.
RFC's universe, his rules. There have been discussions on many such topics, like computers 2k years hence not being much better than ours, wedges violating the 2nd law of thermodynamics, minimal tau at relativistic velocities, and fusion bottle energy densities. I just enjoy the story and his universe.

When it comes to computer tech SciFi creators have had always had a hard time keeping them futuristic at same time as feeling realistic to casual readers and watchers.

The Honorvurse being a long runner has suffered from both technology and science marching on.

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Re: Personal laser weapons.
by darrell » Wed May 18, 2016 4:06 am
darrell Rear Admiral Posts: 1390 Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:57 am	GabrialSagan wrote:Is there a reason that no one in the 20th century PD uses a laser weapon for personal use? I can think of more than a few advantages a laser would have over a projectile weapon but the only laser weapons are shipborne weapons. What is the reason for that? They can build a personal laser one of two ways, either with permanent or disposable lasing material. Honorverse shipboard and missile lasers are x-ray lasers because the shorter the laser the harder it is to armor against. There is no reason that by chnanging the lasing materials Lets start with the size issue. Remember that a DD power laser is still on the order of 10M long and at least 2 meters in diameter. A laser powerful enough to kill a person through powered armor is going to be much bigger than a pulse rifle. Next, as to the lasing materials, if they used a disposable lasing rod, the cost of 10 miligrams of something like hafnium is a lot more expensive than 10 grams of the tungsten steel used in most pulsars. To make the lasing rod permanent, you would need on the order of 1,000 times more material. So a laser weapon using 100 grams of something like hafnium would be many times more expensive to manufacture than a pulsar. In short, for most purposes, a pulsar is smaller, less expensive to build/operate, and uses less power the a laser weapon. Note: it would not surprise me if someone would build a laser weapon for special purposes, but that would be an exception and very rate. <><><><><><><><><><><><> Logic: an organized way to go wrong, with confidence.
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Re: Personal laser weapons.

by darrell » Wed May 18, 2016 4:06 am

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GabrialSagan wrote:Is there a reason that no one in the 20th century PD uses a laser weapon for personal use? I can think of more than a few advantages a laser would have over a projectile weapon but the only laser weapons are shipborne weapons. What is the reason for that?

They can build a personal laser one of two ways, either with permanent or disposable lasing material. Honorverse shipboard and missile lasers are x-ray lasers because the shorter the laser the harder it is to armor against. There is no reason that by chnanging the lasing materials

Lets start with the size issue. Remember that a DD power laser is still on the order of 10M long and at least 2 meters in diameter. A laser powerful enough to kill a person through powered armor is going to be much bigger than a pulse rifle.

Next, as to the lasing materials, if they used a disposable lasing rod, the cost of 10 miligrams of something like hafnium is a lot more expensive than 10 grams of the tungsten steel used in most pulsars.

To make the lasing rod permanent, you would need on the order of 1,000 times more material. So a laser weapon using 100 grams of something like hafnium would be many times more expensive to manufacture than a pulsar.

In short, for most purposes, a pulsar is smaller, less expensive to build/operate, and uses less power the a laser weapon.

Note: it would not surprise me if someone would build a laser weapon for special purposes, but that would be an exception and very rate.

<><><><><><><><><><><><>
Logic: an organized way to go wrong, with confidence.

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Re: Personal laser weapons.
by Dafmeister » Wed May 18, 2016 8:33 am
Dafmeister Commodore Posts: 754 Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:58 am	The conditions of a battlefield tend to count against personal laser weapons as well. Lasers lose effectiveness if they have to pass through anything that absorbs, reflects or refracts light, such as fog, rain and smoke, all of which have an annoying habit of cluttering up terrestrial battlefields.
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Re: Personal laser weapons.

by Dafmeister » Wed May 18, 2016 8:33 am

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The conditions of a battlefield tend to count against personal laser weapons as well. Lasers lose effectiveness if they have to pass through anything that absorbs, reflects or refracts light, such as fog, rain and smoke, all of which have an annoying habit of cluttering up terrestrial battlefields.

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Re: Personal laser weapons.
by Somtaaw » Wed May 18, 2016 9:36 am
Somtaaw Rear Admiral Posts: 1203 Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:36 am Location: Canada	Dafmeister wrote:The conditions of a battlefield tend to count against personal laser weapons as well. Lasers lose effectiveness if they have to pass through anything that absorbs, reflects or refracts light, such as fog, rain and smoke, all of which have an annoying habit of cluttering up terrestrial battlefields. And that's just the environmental possbilities. Know your enemy is firing lasers, right before poking your head up out of a trench you could do anything from throw a craptop of dirt, to spraying aerosol cans among countless other effects. They have some laser weapons in the Furies series, but they're the laser version of SAW's, so it'd be a minimum of a tribarrel for Honorverse. A full up backpack, probably with one or two of the pinnace hip-pocket fusion bottles, and it'd be a 2m long 'rifle' complete with bipod/tripod for stabilization. But they also have chameleon 'cloth' in the Furies series, and in Honorverse nothing smaller than battle armor has it. The chameleon surfaces of battle armor might degrade lasers, and when you count in all the possible environmental and military possibilities to deflect & degrade lasers in addition to chameleonic surfaces, you'd be shining a high-power laser pointer for all the 'damage' you'd actually do. Perhaps useful if you're trying to lase targets for airstrikes, but otherwise you're lucky if you temporarily blind a few people.
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Re: Personal laser weapons.

by Somtaaw » Wed May 18, 2016 9:36 am

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Dafmeister wrote:The conditions of a battlefield tend to count against personal laser weapons as well. Lasers lose effectiveness if they have to pass through anything that absorbs, reflects or refracts light, such as fog, rain and smoke, all of which have an annoying habit of cluttering up terrestrial battlefields.

And that's just the environmental possbilities. Know your enemy is firing lasers, right before poking your head up out of a trench you could do anything from throw a craptop of dirt, to spraying aerosol cans among countless other effects.

They have some laser weapons in the Furies series, but they're the laser version of SAW's, so it'd be a minimum of a tribarrel for Honorverse. A full up backpack, probably with one or two of the pinnace hip-pocket fusion bottles, and it'd be a 2m long 'rifle' complete with bipod/tripod for stabilization. But they also have chameleon 'cloth' in the Furies series, and in Honorverse nothing smaller than battle armor has it.

The chameleon surfaces of battle armor might degrade lasers, and when you count in all the possible environmental and military possibilities to deflect & degrade lasers in addition to chameleonic surfaces, you'd be shining a high-power laser pointer for all the 'damage' you'd actually do. Perhaps useful if you're trying to lase targets for airstrikes, but otherwise you're lucky if you temporarily blind a few people.

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Personal laser weapons.