Haven ships below the wall

munroburton wrote:

Kytheros wrote:While it hasn't been explicitly specified that Haven has some degree of ERM technology, they likely got the Manty-lite version of ERM that Erewhon had in with the rest of the technology transfers. Or at least, so I presume, as I can't think of any particular reason ERM tech would have been withheld, and for that matter, ERM tech probably feeds into or supplements MDM tech to some degree (capacitors and nodes).
Granted, it's likely that the Havenite ERM tech isn't as refined as Manticoran ERM tech, but I expect that it exists.
We also haven't really seen a situation where Havenite ERMs would have been particularly relevant. Most of the second war stuff has been entirely at MDM ranges, or LAC fights.

Sure, they have everything Erewhon had - and Erewhon has been building some pretty impressive light units for Roszak(and themselves). Whilst they didn't do it with ease, they handled ex-Haven and ex-Solarian BCs with light cruisers.

But in order to get ERMs out there, Manticore(and Maya) built new classes of vessels. We've only seen fourth generation modifications of the RHN's mid-war subwallers - although the DDs used as dispatch boats in Silesia were said to be brand new, we didn't get more details on the class, which could have been designed alongside the Mars and Warlord.

IIRC, Manticore also has some ERMs that could be launched from the newer pre-ERM construction's tubes. That is, first-generation ERMs could be launched from the newest existing tubes, but later generation ERMs used a different launcher.
It's quite possible that Haven might have gone for a first-generation ERM that existing tubes could handle, even if they could build a better second-generation ERM for newer construction and designs.
I also suspect that full ERM-capable launchers would have been something that they added to their designs and new construction as soon as they could ... which, admittedly, mostly means anything from some point after the tech-transfer, which probably means after the second war started.

Kytheros wrote:

munroburton wrote:Sure, they have everything Erewhon had - and Erewhon has been building some pretty impressive light units for Roszak(and themselves). Whilst they didn't do it with ease, they handled ex-Haven and ex-Solarian BCs with light cruisers.

But in order to get ERMs out there, Manticore(and Maya) built new classes of vessels. We've only seen fourth generation modifications of the RHN's mid-war subwallers - although the DDs used as dispatch boats in Silesia were said to be brand new, we didn't get more details on the class, which could have been designed alongside the Mars and Warlord.

IIRC, Manticore also has some ERMs that could be launched from the newer pre-ERM construction's tubes. That is, first-generation ERMs could be launched from the newest existing tubes, but later generation ERMs used a different launcher.
It's quite possible that Haven might have gone for a first-generation ERM that existing tubes could handle, even if they could build a better second-generation ERM for newer construction and designs.
I also suspect that full ERM-capable launchers would have been something that they added to their designs and new construction as soon as they could ... which, admittedly, mostly means anything from some point after the tech-transfer, which probably means after the second war started.

I suspect that it is the opposite.

First, they would be able to launch older LERM missiles (DD) from standard BC tubes but not the older ERM (BC)

Second, using the technology that created the Mk-16G, they should be able commit less space to the warhead, while keeping the laser yield the same, which would enable them to make the missiles smaller.

Erewhon call their version of the ERM the Mk-17 missile.

Kytheros wrote:IIRC, Manticore also has some ERMs that could be launched from the newer pre-ERM construction's tubes. That is, first-generation ERMs could be launched from the newest existing tubes, but later generation ERMs used a different launcher.
It's quite possible that Haven might have gone for a first-generation ERM that existing tubes could handle, even if they could build a better second-generation ERM for newer construction and designs.

Hmm, I know that missile performance (primarily accel) inched up during the war which did lead to increased ranges. I'm not sure any of those were considered ERMs, despite having slightly better range than older single drive missiles (SDMs).

My personal 'breakpoint' between "just a better SDM" and a "ERM" is when they had a breakthrough in drive endurance; going past 60 seconds of full power operation (180 seconds of half power). Even a jump of 5 seconds of runtime would, to my mind, be categorized as an ERM.

I don't believe we had official mention of drive time in excess of 60/180 seconds until the Mark 14 ERM showed up [unnamed] in War of Honor (which appears to have around a 90/270 second runtime)

darrell wrote:
I suspect that it is the opposite.

First, they would be able to launch older LERM missiles (DD) from standard BC tubes but not the older ERM (BC)

Second, using the technology that created the Mk-16G, they should be able commit less space to the warhead, while keeping the laser yield the same, which would enable them to make the missiles smaller.

Erewhon call their version of the ERM the Mk-17 missile.

Actually, I believe what was referring to is that it appears that there is a mk-13 ER - a modified Mk 13 that has "a little more" run time that normal. I personally think this an attempt after the mk14/15 sequence to add capability to the many legacy midsized units limited with the Mk 13 using miniaturization of the technology developed in the mk14/15 to add some advances to the older missile.

Silverwall wrote:It's not just that Havenite ships are superior to Solly ones tech wise but that the Havenites have adapted to the current tech reality much better. Especially in the area of Doctrine and general tactical sneakiness. Tricks like the Triple Ripple from Havenite lacs will be a very nasty surprise to some poor solly BC captain.

No, because there's no reason to use the triple ripple against the Sollies. Other than things like the attempted mousetrap at Manticore there's no reason to enter a Solarian missile envelope and thus no reason to counter a vast Solarian missile storm.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Silverwall wrote:It's not just that Havenite ships are superior to Solly ones tech wise but that the Havenites have adapted to the current tech reality much better. Especially in the area of Doctrine and general tactical sneakiness. Tricks like the Triple Ripple from Havenite lacs will be a very nasty surprise to some poor solly BC captain.

No, because there's no reason to use the triple ripple against the Sollies. Other than things like the attempted mousetrap at Manticore there's no reason to enter a Solarian missile envelope and thus no reason to counter a vast Solarian missile storm.

There is absolutely a reason to use this. Havenite light units don't have the Mk 16 missile so have to enter Solly range to defend their target. We know the Sollies are getting missile pods and that they are flushed in the first wave.

Imagine your a Solly BC squadron (8 ships) doing some raiding and you see a defense force of a couple of BCs some tin-cans and some LACs. You actually do some recon and determine that for whatever reason the defenders don't have pods available so you think YES!!! a fair fight. You deploy your pods and move in to collect your scalps. As per doctrine you fire your initial volley of pods to overwhelm the BC's and Blam the lacs triple ripple your opening volley out of existence. At this point I would be very worried what is going to happen next.

At least in the short term, it is not clear where RHN ships are going to encounter SLN units other than probably as an on-going covering force for the Manticore home system. The primary reason I say this is that Haven and most of the systems/space under control or now allied though agreements at the close of the 1st round of the Haven-Manticore War are "behind or beyond" Manticore in terms of navigation through hyperspace. Durring the war, both parts of it, any information and hardware Haven bought from Solly sources had to come from a very long and roundabout route that went well around Manticore controlled space. I don't recall if just where the pipeline of information and examples of equipment connected into SL space but it too a real long time.

Effectively SLN will have to go THROUGH Manticore controlled space to get at or to Haven controlled space. The primary access for Haven to SL markets and SL to Haven markets is and had been through the Manticore Junction which Manticore (quite reasonably) slammed shut to Haven and traffic bound for Haven durring the war.

Now, it is also possible that Haven will contribute ships in the defence of Beowulf though under similar restraints as Manticore since they are now co-beligerents with the SL.

It is also possible, even probable that there are Haven flagged merchants operating in the SL or OFS controlled areas though the may have been stuck there since the war started -or restarted- and have been just working as merchants and freighters-for-hire. to stay in busines
Haven had been actively using at least some of it's merchant fleet as unidentified military units in it's ongoing conquests of systems prior to the Haven-Manticore War. Any of those or just regular merchants who had been "told" to buy stratigic materials, equipment, plans etc and have been continuing to do that and send those home by whatever routes Haven has been able to work out.

At some point, the Mandarins or an OFS official or planitary dictator/OFS partner, or someone in the SLN is going to twig to the idea that there are Haven merchant marine ships in Solly space and move to grab any of them possible to use as bargaining chips in the "diplomacy" they love to engage in.

That any of the RHN ships below the wall are going to be deployed forward against SLN is probably low on the probability list

The astrography point is well taken. On the other hand, one could easily imagine reinforcing Silesia and Talbott with RHN light units given Manticore/Grayson's current lack of hulls, and the clear superiority of the RMN/GSN light units for front-line operations against the ISLN.

It's not clear how easy it would be to refit Havenite units to utilize things like Ghost Rider recon drones, or if their fire control could be updated to easily utilize Mk-16 and Mk-23 missile pods, or even if there are enough to go around with the current manufacturing difficulties.

I could certainly imagine a case where RHN units run into Solly units, if only for MWW to create some kind of non-obvious victory situation for the GA.

That said, the point about tactical superiority (Triple Ripple) and other advanced missile defenses is well taken. It's unlikely the SLN could generate nearly as high a percentage of hits as the RHN, but it's surely a much closer contest. Given the huge discrepancy in the number of hulls the SLN could commit, it's at least an interesting thought experiment.

A lot of good points!

But, have you think of the Solly warheads? If I remember correct, they used contact nukes at the beginning of the Haven/Manticore war. During the war they changed to Laser warheads and improved them.

So, it could be, that the solly´s still use contact warheads and I think all their warheads are less effective than the Haven/Manticore ones.

And it was already said: The solly´s don´t have experied officers who knows current tactics.

The solly´s will have success with their Trade raiding, if they are only attacking trade vessels.

On the other Hand, the solly´s are to dumb to stay back from a real fight, because the Chance that they will loose, again, is very high.

Finally, Haven and Manticorian space is far away from solarian space. Logistics would be a real problem. And you all know, even if you win a fight, you need a shipyard for repairs and I don´t see any solarian shipyards near Manty/Haven space.

Maldorian wrote:But, have you think of the Solly warheads? If I remember correct, they used contact nukes at the beginning of the Haven/Manticore war. During the war they changed to Laser warheads and improved them.

The last time contact nukes were used in a fight between real navy ships in the book series was back in OBS (There were a couple contact nuke hits in HotQ against Saladin, but that fight was a clear anomaly). By the time the actual war against Haven broke out in earnest, both the RMN and Manticore had switched all their attack missiles to carry laserheads.

So, it could be, that the solly´s still use contact warheads and I think all their warheads are less effective than the Haven/Manticore ones.

Less effective, certainly, but again: The Laserhead is a common weapon in SLN arsenals. There might still be ships flying that carry contact nuke missiles, but I strongly doubt it.

And it was already said: The solly´s don´t have experied officers who knows current tactics.

The solly´s will have success with their Trade raiding, if they are only attacking trade vessels.

That's what trade raiding is...?

On the other Hand, the solly´s are to dumb to stay back from a real fight, because the Chance that they will loose, again, is very high.

The intelligence of solly officers doesn't really factor into it. They are so far outclassed by Haven sector forces that it would take exceptional talent for anyone to evade decisive action against them.

Finally, Haven and Manticorian space is far away from solarian space. Logistics would be a real problem. And you all know, even if you win a fight, you need a shipyard for repairs and I don´t see any solarian shipyards near Manty/Haven space.

But that's all irrelevant if you can take and hold the wormhole junction. Sure, sending Filareta out was a big gamble, but if he had succeeded, he would have been able to secure a logistics pipeline straight into the core of the League. And honestly, the forces the SLN is likely to send out to raid Manty commerce are all going to be light enough that they can be supplied for some time using just normal fleet train capabilities.