Haven ships below the wall

I've come fairly recently to the honorverse, and read through the books somewhat voraciously. Having finished the main sequence books fairly recently, I was wondering a little bit about Admiral Kingsford's commerce raiding strategy, and specifically how Havenite ships below the wall might compare to Solly ships. It seems like it might be a lot closer than a fight with Manticoran ships, since Haven doesn't have any MDMs or DDMs for it's sub-capital ships.

I assume there will be some tech transfer, and Haven ships might get a few of the bolt-on missile pods, but if the Sollies get there before that can really be distributed (and there aren't that many to go around), how do the Havenite ships stack up? I figure they have a little bit better missile defense and acceleration, if not by as great a margin, but they won't outrange the Solly ships, so it seems like the overwhelming numerical superiority might pay off, if the Sollies think to raid Haven, rather than Manticoran space.

Apologies if I missed a discussion on this, this forum isn't always easy to search with the tangents topics have been known to veer off in.

Welcome!

Well, the Battle of Torch (as seen in Torch of Freedom) gives some clue. The ex-State Sec battlecruisers were considered more significant threats than the Indefatigables that Mesa "loaned" them. This is despite the Peep ships being 5 or more years behind the technological curve.

Another data point is in the Battle of Tiberium. The SLN Gladiator-class was considered by very dangerous by both the crew of the Gauntlet, and later by Helen Zilwicki. While not up to par to a Saganami-B or -C, they are probably equivalent to a Star Knight a Saganami-A.

PS: you clicked the wrong button when you tried to reply. You sent your post to the moderation queue instead.

Welcome also!

To add to what Duckk has already said, from AAC we know that the RHN has since modified its sub-wall ships to be far more effective at killing missiles, at the expense of some offensive capability.

I'm not sure the Indefatigables provided to the PNE were equivalent. If they were Flight Is, they'd be more comparable to the Sultan(or perhaps even the Tiger), not the Warlords they bolstered. IMO, the Warlord's contemporary would be the SLN's Nevada.

Unlike the PNE, modern RHN vessels will have access to capital MDM pods. Those outrange and outpower Cataphract missiles substantially. However, the RHN hasn't shown us new longer-ranged sub-waller missiles yet, so they might get a heavy first punch in, then be forced to endure the SLN survivors' return fire for some time before their shipboard launchers can finish the job.

Working in Haven's favour, though, is that preliminary punch will destroy any pods the Sollies brought along, so they'd be forced to rely upon their DD-weight Cataphracts.

In the end, I expect any SLN force to suffer heavy losses against Havenite units, even if they have overwhelming numbers. Depending how badly they outnumber the Havenites, they'll probably inflict anywhere between no damage to the kind of beating Roszak took at Torch.

Thanks for the welcome.

That seems to support the idea that even if the Havenite ships are generally superior to the Solly ships, it's not so great as confer them the kind of effective immunity the Manty ships have to Solarian fire. The SLN would probably still face a fairly depressing rate of exchange, but if they're prepared to embrace that kind of attritional warfare, they may at least be able to disrupt trade and commerce in the Haven sector.

At least, assuming they recognize that they have that opportunity, rather than focusing in Manticore's direction, and that they're able to make their way all the way out there without any access to the wormhole network.

caias wrote:Thanks for the welcome.

That seems to support the idea that even if the Havenite ships are generally superior to the Solly ships, it's not so great as confer them the kind of effective immunity the Manty ships have to Solarian fire. The SLN would probably still face a fairly depressing rate of exchange, but if they're prepared to embrace that kind of attritional warfare, they may at least be able to disrupt trade and commerce in the Haven sector.

At least, assuming they recognize that they have that opportunity, rather than focusing in Manticore's direction, and that they're able to make their way all the way out there without any access to the wormhole network.

It's a bit of a trade-off. The SLN Javelin ever so slightly outranges to single-drive missiles (though not extended range missiles [ERMs]) of Manticore. I assume that means that do the same compared to Haven's single drive missiles.

We've seen nothing to show that Haven has refitted or build units with ERMs. So they have no missile range advantage over current SLN designs. And the range issue is worse if the SLN units were given Cataphracts - as those roughly equal the powered range of an RMN ERM (but could presumably add a ballistic coast phase to better that effective engagement range). Though of course as others already noted if the Havenite ships are towing capital MDM pods the range advantage is firmly on the other foot; at least until the pods are expended)

On the other hand we know from Shadows of Saganani that Haven has been refitting their smaller ships with bow walls (though not, so far as we know, the 2 stage "buckler" walls on the latest RMN designs), and also significantly improving their acceleration. So they are quicker than SLN units; the SLN units won't be able to hold the range open to exploit any missile range advantage. Or, should the Havenite ships detect overwhelming force they've got a better chance of successfully running.

Finally we know that SLN missile tub and CM cycle times are pitifully anemic compared to Haven sector standards. I don't have the numbers handy, but again SoS tells us that a RMN older unit has a missile tube cycle time of 8 seconds; while the ex-SLN BCs were 35 seconds. Presuming that Haven has similar times they can pump out over 4 times as many missiles per minute from each tube as the SLN units can.
For point defense the SLN CM launchers appear almost as pitiful - so they're going to be getting hit with a lot more missiles and be a lot less capable of stopping them than the Havenite ships.

Also the SLN missile defense computers can't deal with the terminal velocities that MDM combat creates; through that's not a problem if its a SDM vs SDM fight.

For the most recently refit BCs and SDs their Halo decoy platforms aren't bad hardware; though the software on them sucks. And worse Manticore almost certainly shared the captured ECM software with Haven so they can pre-program their missiles to know all of Halo's tricks.


A SLN commerce raiding force might be better off jumping an Havenite cruiser squadron than they would even a squadron of legacy RMN ships; but better is a relative thing. I think the Havenites will get banged up, but I expect the SLN units to take the worse of it.


Anyway let me also welcome you to the forum, and apologize a little for dropping this wall of text on you.

caias wrote:At least, assuming they recognize that they have that opportunity, rather than focusing in Manticore's direction, and that they're able to make their way all the way out there without any access to the wormhole network.

I suspect that the SLN (and Mandarins) are fixated on getting revenge against Manticore; Haven is kind of secondary to dealing with the "uppity" Manticorans. Gaining control of the Manticore WHJ transit fees to pay for all the lost ships is a not inconsiderable factor was well.

It is hard to say for certain, but I think the Mandarins and SLN High Command think Haven is just a dupe of Manticore and will sue for peace if Manticore falls. They're more worried about Beowulf joining the GA than Haven's presence.

It's not just that Havenite ships are superior to Solly ones tech wise but that the Havenites have adapted to the current tech reality much better. Especially in the area of Doctrine and general tactical sneakiness. Tricks like the Triple Ripple from Havenite lacs will be a very nasty surprise to some poor solly BC captain.

The Solly doctorine reminds me of the British Tank Cavalry units in the western desert being stuck in the cavalry charge mentality and being drawn into Anti-tank ambushes by the Africa corps time and again. Technically the British tanks were at least as good as the German and Italian ones and the Sherman at that time was flat out better than the Mk III and Mk IV variants of the time.

Haven has superdreadnoughts up the wazoo; they've been building like mad ever since the Battle Of Manticore and their shipyards have not even been threatened. Any ships sent out pirate-hunting (and in the absence of a declared war such raiding can be considered piracy) would be...supported...by a couple or four SD's. Haven's compensator design is not too far behind Manticore's, so Haven SD's would be able to run down ISLN battlecruisers without too much trouble and then, well -- bug, meet windshield.
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Jonathan_S wrote:

caias wrote:Thanks for the welcome.

That seems to support the idea that even if the Havenite ships are generally superior to the Solly ships, it's not so great as confer them the kind of effective immunity the Manty ships have to Solarian fire. The SLN would probably still face a fairly depressing rate of exchange, but if they're prepared to embrace that kind of attritional warfare, they may at least be able to disrupt trade and commerce in the Haven sector.

At least, assuming they recognize that they have that opportunity, rather than focusing in Manticore's direction, and that they're able to make their way all the way out there without any access to the wormhole network.

It's a bit of a trade-off. The SLN Javelin ever so slightly outranges to single-drive missiles (though not extended range missiles [ERMs]) of Manticore. I assume that means that do the same compared to Haven's single drive missiles.

We've seen nothing to show that Haven has refitted or build units with ERMs. So they have no missile range advantage over current SLN designs. And the range issue is worse if the SLN units were given Cataphracts - as those roughly equal the powered range of an RMN ERM (but could presumably add a ballistic coast phase to better that effective engagement range). Though of course as others already noted if the Havenite ships are towing capital MDM pods the range advantage is firmly on the other foot; at least until the pods are expended)

On the other hand we know from Shadows of Saganani that Haven has been refitting their smaller ships with bow walls (though not, so far as we know, the 2 stage "buckler" walls on the latest RMN designs), and also significantly improving their acceleration. So they are quicker than SLN units; the SLN units won't be able to hold the range open to exploit any missile range advantage. Or, should the Havenite ships detect overwhelming force they've got a better chance of successfully running.

Finally we know that SLN missile tub and CM cycle times are pitifully anemic compared to Haven sector standards. I don't have the numbers handy, but again SoS tells us that a RMN older unit has a missile tube cycle time of 8 seconds; while the ex-SLN BCs were 35 seconds. Presuming that Haven has similar times they can pump out over 4 times as many missiles per minute from each tube as the SLN units can.
For point defense the SLN CM launchers appear almost as pitiful - so they're going to be getting hit with a lot more missiles and be a lot less capable of stopping them than the Havenite ships.

Also the SLN missile defense computers can't deal with the terminal velocities that MDM combat creates; through that's not a problem if its a SDM vs SDM fight.

For the most recently refit BCs and SDs their Halo decoy platforms aren't bad hardware; though the software on them sucks. And worse Manticore almost certainly shared the captured ECM software with Haven so they can pre-program their missiles to know all of Halo's tricks.


A SLN commerce raiding force might be better off jumping an Havenite cruiser squadron than they would even a squadron of legacy RMN ships; but better is a relative thing. I think the Havenites will get banged up, but I expect the SLN units to take the worse of it.


Anyway let me also welcome you to the forum, and apologize a little for dropping this wall of text on you.

While it hasn't been explicitly specified that Haven has some degree of ERM technology, they likely got the Manty-lite version of ERM that Erewhon had in with the rest of the technology transfers. Or at least, so I presume, as I can't think of any particular reason ERM tech would have been withheld, and for that matter, ERM tech probably feeds into or supplements MDM tech to some degree (capacitors and nodes).
Granted, it's likely that the Havenite ERM tech isn't as refined as Manticoran ERM tech, but I expect that it exists.
We also haven't really seen a situation where Havenite ERMs would have been particularly relevant. Most of the second war stuff has been entirely at MDM ranges, or LAC fights.

Kytheros wrote:While it hasn't been explicitly specified that Haven has some degree of ERM technology, they likely got the Manty-lite version of ERM that Erewhon had in with the rest of the technology transfers. Or at least, so I presume, as I can't think of any particular reason ERM tech would have been withheld, and for that matter, ERM tech probably feeds into or supplements MDM tech to some degree (capacitors and nodes).
Granted, it's likely that the Havenite ERM tech isn't as refined as Manticoran ERM tech, but I expect that it exists.
We also haven't really seen a situation where Havenite ERMs would have been particularly relevant. Most of the second war stuff has been entirely at MDM ranges, or LAC fights.

Sure, they have everything Erewhon had - and Erewhon has been building some pretty impressive light units for Roszak(and themselves). Whilst they didn't do it with ease, they handled ex-Haven and ex-Solarian BCs with light cruisers.

But in order to get ERMs out there, Manticore(and Maya) built new classes of vessels. We've only seen fourth generation modifications of the RHN's mid-war subwallers - although the DDs used as dispatch boats in Silesia were said to be brand new, we didn't get more details on the class, which could have been designed alongside the Mars and Warlord.