Political Marriage and the Manticoran Constitution

The Manticorans like to make a big deal about how the monarch is obliged to marry a commoner. I cannot help but feel like that cuts them off from using one of the most effective diplomatic tools ever devised, political marriage.
I can perfectly understand not wanting the monarch to marry members of the Manticoran aristocracy, but using marriage to make peace, strengthen alliances and secure close relations and good will between nations is something that the Manticoran Framers should have thought of.

GabrialSagan wrote:The Manticorans like to make a big deal about how the monarch is obliged to marry a commoner. I cannot help but feel like that cuts them off from using one of the most effective diplomatic tools ever devised, political marriage.
I can perfectly understand not wanting the monarch to marry members of the Manticoran aristocracy, but using marriage to make peace, strengthen alliances and secure close relations and good will between nations is something that the Manticoran Framers should have thought of.

Look at Europe before WW 1 political marriages do not work out as easily or as effectively as we would hope.

GabrialSagan wrote:The Manticorans like to make a big deal about how the monarch is obliged to marry a commoner. I cannot help but feel like that cuts them off from using one of the most effective diplomatic tools ever devised, political marriage.
I can perfectly understand not wanting the monarch to marry members of the Manticoran aristocracy, but using marriage to make peace, strengthen alliances and secure close relations and good will between nations is something that the Manticoran Framers should have thought of.

Before the Haven wars, that wasn't really an issue; the Kingdom didn't make many alliances.

What I've wondered is what happens if younger child Prince Bob marries an aristocrat and then his elder sister Princess Alice dies without issue. Is Bob her heir, or does the crown go to some more distant relative? Or what if he gets a divorce?

Bill Woods wrote:What I've wondered is what happens if younger child Prince Bob marries an aristocrat and then his elder sister Princess Alice dies without issue. Is Bob her heir, or does the crown go to some more distant relative? Or what if he gets a divorce?

Somewhere in the Pearls of Weber, that question was answered; IIRC, the rule only applies to marriage of the Heir Presumptive or the Monarch if unmarried. If a scion is already married when the become the Heir Presumptive their existing marriage is unaffected.

WRT the initial question, the second and subsequent heirs to the Throne are available for dynastic and/or political marriages although that doesn't seem to be much of an issue with current alliances -- only the Andermani have explicit royalty -- although Stedholders are considered the equivalent of royalty (mostly because of Honor) I think their family members other than in the direct line of inheritance would qualify as "commoners" for the purpose of Manticoran law.

GabrialSagan wrote:The Manticorans like to make a big deal about how the monarch is obliged to marry a commoner. I cannot help but feel like that cuts them off from using one of the most effective diplomatic tools ever devised, political marriage.
I can perfectly understand not wanting the monarch to marry members of the Manticoran aristocracy, but using marriage to make peace, strengthen alliances and secure close relations and good will between nations is something that the Manticoran Framers should have thought of.

This only works in an environment where everyone who matters is operating along monarchic principles, which is very much not the case in the Honorverse.

Weird Harold wrote:

Bill Woods wrote:What I've wondered is what happens if younger child Prince Bob marries an aristocrat and then his elder sister Princess Alice dies without issue. Is Bob her heir, or does the crown go to some more distant relative? Or what if he gets a divorce?

Somewhere in the Pearls of Weber, that question was answered; IIRC, the rule only applies to marriage of the Heir Presumptive or the Monarch if unmarried. If a scion is already married when the become the Heir Presumptive their existing marriage is unaffected.

I remember the first part of that question being answered, as you said the rule only applies to the Monarch and current heir; and doesn't affect existing manages. But I don't remember whether RFC covered the second part; which I'd rephrase to "does the rule cover subsequent marriages, or expanding the marriage. If the heir gets divorced, or heir spouse dies, did the first marriage completely meet the legal requirement? Are they now free to marry an aristocrat should they desire to? I'd guess not, but that's a guess.

Also what if the heir and their spouse both love an additional person and want to ring them into the mairage, can' that third member be of the nobility? After all the heir would still currently married to a commoner, they'd just also be married to a noble... Whether that scenario might be allowed would probably depend on both the exact wording of the requirement and also the spirit behind the requirement - does it exist to force the monarch to have a direct personal insight into commoners perspective? The a polygamous marriage that still included a commoner would seem to meet the spirit. But if the intent was to keep the monarch free from family loyalties to noble families then taking an aristocrat as an additional spouse would be against the spirit...

Jonathan_S wrote:...Whether that scenario might be allowed would probably depend on both the exact wording of the requirement and also the spirit behind the requirement ...

I suspect that the wording, rather than the spirit would be the deciding factor. IOW, Cathy Montaigne could marry the Heir now that she's abdicated her title. (or some other Noble who abdicates a title...)

Weird Harold wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:...Whether that scenario might be allowed would probably depend on both the exact wording of the requirement and also the spirit behind the requirement ...

I suspect that the wording, rather than the spirit would be the deciding factor. IOW, Cathy Montaigne could marry the Heir now that she's abdicated her title. (or some other Noble who abdicates a title...)

Seems like a remarkably obvious way to get around the matter. But that might be permissible, as it prevents the Crown from accruing aristocratic property.

Actually, when considering marriage to someone who qualifies as noble in another polity, the question I'd have to ask is whether that would even trigger the requirement. They are not Manticoran nobles.

It all depends on exactly how the provision is worded. Lawyers are slippery beasts.

Under Grayson law and that of the Star Empire a Steadholder is some where between a Duchy and a Grand Duchy in order of precedent, remember Honor is only out ranked by only three nobles in the SEM namely the Grand Dukes of Manticore and Gryphon and the Grand Duchess of Sphinx. Steadings are effectively nations in there own right. Remember Bay House serves as Harrington Steadings embassy to the SEM.