Extended range missiles

First point, I specified going down in time by 15 seconds. If the SKM were to incrase acceleration by your 8%, that would only decrease the time to reach 3.6Mkm by 4 seconds, from 90 to 86 seconds.

I went back into SoS to take another look, and it seems we are both wrong about some things.

Quote SoS: Warlock would also have a slight range advantage over the Monican battlecruisers, but it wasn't great enough to change the tactical equation significantly. Her tubes were simply too small; she couldn't handle even the Mark 14 missiles the Saganami-Bs had been designed to fire,

The Mk 4 are the ERM's, so definatly no ERM for warlock, and since most of the ships in talbot were older ones, IMO it is unlikely that any of the other ships had ERM's or LERM's

The controlling factor was the speed of the kitty's launch rate. Per SoS:
If they couldn't stop, or at least severely damage, those oncoming leviathans before the two forces interpenetrated, there would be no tomorrow, and so as the range dropped to 11.4 million kilometers, they went to rapid fire at Hexapuma's maximum rate.

I suspect that warlock goofed and fired early.

The next SOS reference had multiple parts sections, I goofed and didn't see the second part. Quote SoS:
In the next two hundred and sixteen seconds, Aivars Terekhov's cruisers and destroyers fired nine hundred and ninety attack missiles and one hundred and twenty Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth. Seven hundred and thirteen missiles and seventy-nine of the electronic warfare birds were in space before the first salvo landed. In the same time period, Cyclone and Hurricane fired three hundred and thirty-six missiles . . . and no dedicated EW platforms at all.

713+79=792 birds and 88 launchers = 9 salvo's at 18 seconds = 162-179 seconds acutal flight time for the manticoran missiles.

Depending on how fast the monicans could clear their broadsides and how soon they started their turn, they could have fired their first broadside anytime between 1 and 19 seconds after manticore fired theirs.

216 seconds is the total time it took to shoot everyone dry. That is 12 salvo's, the first 9 would be in space before the first one hit home. The last salvo would have detonated about 5 1/2 minutes after the first one was fired and the forces would still be about 5Mkm apart.

Although the squadron opened fire at I did forget to figure in closing velocity. When figured in it would have been the same 7.3Mkm range at rest of a manty SDM. There was also two parts of the quote, and I missed the second part on my read through.

Weird Harold wrote:

darrell wrote:Vipers and Mk 31 CM's have 3.6Mkm range. could not find an acceleration or an endurance figure. IMO the most likely possibility is: 92Kg's @90 seconds = 3,655,206km. The next logical step down in time is: 130Kg's @ 75 seconds = 3,586,781km

No, the next logical step is that CM drives got the same improvements as ship-killer drives: 92KG/85KG * 92KG = 99.5KG

darrell wrote:The ERM's fired at the battle of monica by manticore had an endurance of 225 seconds = 75 seconds @ 92Kg's = 11,422,519km from rest. remember that both forces were approaching each other, and that is the reason that rang was longer.

I'm not sure how much more range Warlock had but Warlock fired one salvo and the rest fired "shortly thereafter" -- probably with Warlock's second double broadside. The closing velocity between the Monican BCs and Terekhov's ships closed the distance by Warlock's range advantage in the 18 seconds (or so) between salvos for Warlock.

darrell wrote:The BC missiles mesa/technodyne supplied monica also had 75/225 second drives and roughly equal range as both sides started firing within seconds of each other, or somewhere between 11Mkm and 12Mkm range.

"Within seconds" covers a lot of distance at relavistic closing velocities; the entire 11Mkm from their first missiles to there wreckage passing Terekov's ships was "within seconds."

darrell wrote:The BC missiles supplied to monica are not standard solly issue.

darrell wrote:Quote: Torch of freedom:
and he had to admit that the Cataphracts in his battlecruisers' magazines

indicates that Monica's BC missiles are Cataphracts. Remember that monica's Cataphracts had 225 second drive time and a range from rest of 11.5Mkm plus or minus a few hundred thousand. The BC missiles supplied to monica are not standard solly issue.

Your conflating two different battles with two different sets of missile types. As far as can be determined, Monica was provided with current SLN (FF) equipment including missiles.

darrell wrote:Quote: Torch of freedom:
Commander Raycraft's head jerked around in astonishment. That couldn't be right! Hammer Force was still eleven million kilometers from the enemy!

If we have a 180 second missile drive at 44Kg's plus a 45 second CM drive at 88K G's, that is 225 seconds and a powered range from rest of 11,362,923Km, which is almost exactly what was observed in both Monica and torch.

In the battle of Torch, it is made abundantly clear that Adm Roszak(sp?) closed a great deal closer than he had to; to just outside the range he assumed the PNE was capable of.

The range figures for Monica were NOT "From rest" but with a relativistic closing velocity. The ranges in the battle of Torch were shorter than either side was actually capable of.

This does put a new spin on some of my ASSumptions.

there is now nothing I am aware of that conflicts with ducks drive statement for the Cataphracts.

Duckk wrote:Cataphracts go 467 KPS^2 for 180 seconds, then 961 for 75. = 47K g's at 180 seconds @98Kg's for 75 seconds which works out as a range from rest of 16.4Mkm

BTW, double check your figures, you initially said 1st stage 180s @50% power (47600g) which is 600g's high.

This still dosen't give us the duration, acceleration or range of the ERM/LRM. IMO the most logical would be that since the viper is 3.6Mkm which works out to 90 seconds @ 92K g's, the ERM/LERM would be 90/270 seconds for a range of 3.6/16.5Mkm, which gives them about the same range as the Cataphrects.

darrell wrote:there is now nothing I am aware of that conflicts with ducks drive statement for the Cataphracts.

Duckk wrote:Cataphracts go 467 KPS^2 for 180 seconds, then 961 for 75. = 47K g's at 180 seconds @98Kg's for 75 seconds which works out as a range from rest of 16.4Mkm

BTW, double check your figures, you initially said 1st stage 180s @50% power (47600g) which is 600g's high.

This still dosen't give us the duration, acceleration or range of the ERM/LRM. IMO the most logical would be that since the viper is 3.6Mkm which works out to 90 seconds @ 92K g's, the ERM/LERM would be 90/270 seconds for a range of 3.6/16.5Mkm, which gives them about the same range as the Cataphrects.

Whether I was 600g high rather depends on whether we're talking 9.8 or 10 m/s^2 as 1G {Err: actually the discrepancy would be 900g between those 2)

Anyway, my main thing was to let you know that Ashes of Victory actually gives us the specs of the Mark 31 CM (basis of the Viper) and it's not a 90 second duration.

Ashes of Victory: Ch 19 wrote:The Mark 31 counter-missiles Honor's ships were firing represented significant improvements even over the Mark 30 counter-missiles her command had used as recently as the Battle of Sidemore, only months before. Their insanely powerful wedges were capable of sustaining accelerations of up to 130,000 gravities for as much as seventy-five seconds, which gave them a powered range from rest of almost 3.6 million kilometers.

(And my notes say the Mark 30 had the same accel but only the 60s endurance)

Jonathan_S wrote:

darrell wrote:Manticore CM's at 92KG's, 45 seconds are better than Peep CM's, which are better than Solly CM's. This makes it highly unlikely that solly CM's could be 75 seconds at 98Kg's. IMO the most likely possibility is that Johnathan_S didn't get the quote from Duckk right. If that is the case, IMO the most logical probability is that solly CM's are 45 seconds @ 88Kg's. distance= 874,071km from rest.

Here's the actual quote from page 3 of Forcing a Roland to Withdraw

Duckk wrote:Cataphracts go 467 KPS^2 for 180 seconds, then 961 for 75.

I did convert the KPS into Gs; since that how the rest of my missile spreadsheet works with them.

961 km/s^2 * 1000 = 961,000 m/s^2
961000 m/s^2 / 9.8 m/s^2 = 98,061.22449g

(Or if, as RFC seems to do you use 10 m/s^s as an Honorverse galactic standard g, 96,100g)

He may have gotten sloppy on occasion, or his characters may have, but when he gives both figures he isn't using
1 gee == 10 m/s2 = 1 kgal.

_OBS_ wrote: The missile belched from Fearless's number two missile tube and sped ahead at an acceleration of 417 KPS2, ... It could have accelerated twice as fast, but reducing its acceleration to 42,500 g raised its small impeller's burnout time from one minute to three, ...

_THotQ_ wrote: Courvosier blanched. Eight hundred and thirty KPS2 was 85,000 gees!

... Unfortunately, since it would make accurate calculations that much easier and avoid the potential ambiguity.