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What will Admiral Higgins' next command be?

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Re: What will Admiral Higgins' next command be?
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri May 13, 2016 1:29 pm

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Kytheros wrote:Design/Engineering tradeoffs making up the discrepancies in missile drive performance could perhaps be believable for SLN missile drives being slightly better than pre-war Manticoran SDMs.
I'm not sure about that, since the Peeps were shelling out for Solly tech to improve their missiles, and while sensors and EW capabilities are important, better missile drives would have been handy.


Those tradeoffs making the standard SLN deployed missile drives better than 1920 Manticoran missile drives? No, that I don't buy.
Especially since Manticore would have had good access to anything coming from Solarian R&D, between their long-standing practice of exploiting the wormhole network for getting information from everywhere and ties to Beowulf and the Beowulf SDF. Plus the decades of R&D Manticore put into improving their own missile drives.


I could maybe accept that somewhere in the League a somebody made a breakthrough in missile drive performance that Manticore didn't have or hadn't matched/exceeded yet - if it weren't for the fact that the notoriously slow to adopt new things SLN already had these advances in missile drives in standard deployment. Or if they were something brand new to the SLN ... but they're not new.



The People's Republic, under Pierre were desperate for Solarian Navy tech to help even out Manticore's edge. But with missiles, it's more the warhead and EW that makes the missile than just pure range; assuming both sides have loosely equal range missiles.

So pre-MDM's, it wouldn't have really made much difference if your missiles ever so slightly out-ranged mine, if my missiles are both more accurate and hitting harder than yours do. Good samples... CL Fearless vs Sirius, CA Fearless vs Thunder of God, Hancock TG-001 vs Admiral Chin. Three engagements, where Manticore was time and again, scoring far more hits despite firing far smaller salvo, and much smaller missiles than their enemy.

And as someone pointed out, the SLN probably froze missile sizes so they wouldn't have to constantly refit ships in their Reserve. Large performance increases come only at the expense of large size changes. Since the pre-war missiles were size frozen, they could get very tiny increases, like the 'advantage' of a mere 1000 gravs of acceleration for the same runtimes.

But you might also start getting a smaller warhead, in exchange for those better nodes, better seekers without changing the missile's size. After all, look how TIY worked out their MDMs, was Cataphract-B's are Superdreadnought-fired missiles, but they are really only a heavy cruiser/battlecruiser size missile. The Cataphract-C which was the old SD-size missiles became pod-only.
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Re: What will Admiral Higgins' next command be?
Post by darrell   » Fri May 13, 2016 1:49 pm

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Kytheros wrote:Design/Engineering tradeoffs making up the discrepancies in missile drive performance could perhaps be believable for SLN missile drives being slightly better than pre-war Manticoran SDMs.
I'm not sure about that, since the Peeps were shelling out for Solly tech to improve their missiles, and while sensors and EW capabilities are important, better missile drives would have been handy.


Those tradeoffs making the standard SLN deployed missile drives better than 1920 Manticoran missile drives? No, that I don't buy.
Especially since Manticore would have had good access to anything coming from Solarian R&D, between their long-standing practice of exploiting the wormhole network for getting information from everywhere and ties to Beowulf and the Beowulf SDF. Plus the decades of R&D Manticore put into improving their own missile drives.


I could maybe accept that somewhere in the League a somebody made a breakthrough in missile drive performance that Manticore didn't have or hadn't matched/exceeded yet - if it weren't for the fact that the notoriously slow to adopt new things SLN already had these advances in missile drives in standard deployment. Or if they were something brand new to the SLN ... but they're not new.


Just one example for illustration, guessing at numbers and presuming the technology is the same (it was close in 1890)

. . . . . SLN Manticore
Drive . 80t 65t --> SLN drive is 23% bigger
seekers 30t 35t --> RMN seekers are 16% more accurate
warhead 25t 35t --> RMN have 40% bigger warheads
total . 135t 135t

in the example above, althogh the SLN and RHN missile are the same physical size, SLN missiles are faster but not as accurate with smaller warheads.

There is lots of text that the SLN missiles are faster
There is lots of text that the RMN missiles are more powerful
There is some text that implies, but does not explicitly state that RMN missiles are more accurate. I personally would consider it likely, as we have seen RMN accuracy increase over the 25 years from OBS to ART.
Last edited by darrell on Fri May 13, 2016 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What will Admiral Higgins' next command be?
Post by darrell   » Fri May 13, 2016 2:15 pm

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Kytheros wrote:Design/Engineering tradeoffs making up the discrepancies in missile drive performance could perhaps be believable for SLN missile drives being slightly better than pre-war Manticoran SDMs.
I'm not sure about that, since the Peeps were shelling out for Solly tech to improve their missiles, and while sensors and EW capabilities are important, better missile drives would have been handy.

Those tradeoffs making the standard SLN deployed missile drives better than 1920 Manticoran missile drives? No, that I don't buy.
Especially since Manticore would have had good access to anything coming from Solarian R&D, between their long-standing practice of exploiting the wormhole network for getting information from everywhere and ties to Beowulf and the Beowulf SDF. Plus the decades of R&D Manticore put into improving their own missile drives.

I could maybe accept that somewhere in the League a somebody made a breakthrough in missile drive performance that Manticore didn't have or hadn't matched/exceeded yet - if it weren't for the fact that the notoriously slow to adopt new things SLN already had these advances in missile drives in standard deployment. Or if they were something brand new to the SLN ... but they're not new.


You seem to be mis-informed as to what the solly - peep tech transfers were.

They were definitely not knowledge based, blueprints, designs, etc. that haven could have used to manufacture the items themselves. If they were, that could have been done by courier boats instead of freighters.

They were very unlikely to be manufacturing equipment to be able to build better ships and missiles, as the embargo was against military tech transfers and manufacturing equipment is not military.

Note: if you had a IC machine that is 10 years old instead of a microprocessor silicon chip 1CM square in a case 4CM on a side you would have to have a silicon chip 100 times bigger (10 CM on a side) in a 12 CM case.

They were almost certainly hardware and military components, since they were delivered in freighters. That being the case, I would buy warship components instead of missile drives. 1M tons of military computers for SD's would outfit more than 1 SD and would last for years. 1M tons of missile drives would outfit enough missiles for One SD and would last for one battle.
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Re: What will Admiral Higgins' next command be?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri May 13, 2016 2:25 pm

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Dafmeister wrote:What performance figures do we have for SLN missiles? The only data I can remember, and it's vague, is for the terminal stage of the Cataphract missiles. Those use countermissile drives, which have always had far higher acceleration numbers than shipkillers.

The simple answer is that Duckk posted here a while ago and provided the performance specs for both stages of the Cataphract. (1st stage 47,600g for 180s, 2nd stage 98,000g for 75s)
And we have text-ev that the 1st stage matches the flight profile of the SLN Javelin.

There are hints of text-ev in Torch of Freedom that support that (plus of course we know the Cataphract's max powered range which matches up against the numbers Duckk provided). There's a mention from the PNE side that the missiles fired back at them at Torch (Erewhonese Mk-17-E ERMs) were lower accel than the Cataphract 1st stage. We know the Mk-17-E is their version of the Mk-14 ERM, and that the Mk-14 ERM's accel is 46,000g at it's normal 50% power setting.


But those two data points from the Cataphract are really all I think we know. (Though there might be a mention or two elsewhere that I've missed)
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Re: What will Admiral Higgins' next command be?
Post by saber964   » Fri May 13, 2016 4:46 pm

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cthia wrote:
saber964 wrote:IMO Higgins will be given commands that will take him out of -shall we say- the front lines. He will be given important but strategically less important assignments like ambassador to Haven or CinC Ninth Fleet or Silisia station after ADM Sarnow rotates home.

Much like what happened to ADM Jack Fletcher who was promoted to important but less and less relevant positions after Guadalcanal. IIRC he commanded the 13th naval district HQ Seattle WA, the Northwestern Sea Frontier and CinC North Pacific which after 1943 was basically a backwater like the South Pacific Area command in roughly the same time period.

But if they do that, before he has a chance to get back on the horse, it could affect him much as the situation with Aivars Terekhov before he got a chance to "re"prove the temper of his mettle, and the looming and cloudy questions of doubt that hung over his head by his crew. Which could have affected his decision during the Talbott crisis - wanting to play it safe and lay up (golf), to protect his career. It was the unbending mettle that he showed under threat of his career that earned him the total respect of his peers.

He totally should ask Dame Estelle out - for breakfast the morning after.

Didn't Terekhov have doubts of his own?



How much of a horse does he have to get up on? He is Admiral of the Fleet, essentially second in command of the entire RMN. What kind of commands would he be able to hold. That wouldn't be seen as a demotion, Grand Fleet? Honor's got a lock on that command for the foreseeable future, Eighth Fleet? Alice Truman apparently has that one, Tenth Fleet? Mike Henke has a lock on that one. Maybe organize a new strike fleet analogous of sixth and eighth fleets? This on is a possibility if you base it in the Erehwon-Congo area for strikes on that flank of the SL.
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Re: What will Admiral Higgins' next command be?
Post by Dafmeister   » Sat May 14, 2016 10:19 am

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saber964 wrote:How much of a horse does he have to get up on? He is Admiral of the Fleet, essentially second in command of the entire RMN. What kind of commands would he be able to hold. That wouldn't be seen as a demotion, Grand Fleet? Honor's got a lock on that command for the foreseeable future, Eighth Fleet? Alice Truman apparently has that one, Tenth Fleet? Mike Henke has a lock on that one. Maybe organize a new strike fleet analogous of sixth and eighth fleets? This on is a possibility if you base it in the Erehwon-Congo area for strikes on that flank of the SL.


Admiral of the Fleet isn't a rank per se, it just means he's commander of Home Fleet. Honor was Admiral of the Fleet after First Manticore until enough new construction came through for a new Eighth Fleet to be formed, at which point she went to pay a call on Eloise Pritchart. Sebastian D'Orville was Admiral of the Fleet in OBS; in SVW he was commanding the fleet defending Grayson (until Hamish was sent there for Third Yeltsin, at least) and was back as Admiral of the Fleet for First Manticore. Leaving command of Home Fleet for another fleet command isn't a demotion, it's a standard part of the RMN's flag officer rotation policy/
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Re: What will Admiral Higgins' next command be?
Post by saber964   » Sat May 14, 2016 4:12 pm

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Dafmeister wrote:
saber964 wrote:How much of a horse does he have to get up on? He is Admiral of the Fleet, essentially second in command of the entire RMN. What kind of commands would he be able to hold. That wouldn't be seen as a demotion, Grand Fleet? Honor's got a lock on that command for the foreseeable future, Eighth Fleet? Alice Truman apparently has that one, Tenth Fleet? Mike Henke has a lock on that one. Maybe organize a new strike fleet analogous of sixth and eighth fleets? This on is a possibility if you base it in the Erehwon-Congo area for strikes on that flank of the SL.


Admiral of the Fleet isn't a rank per se, it just means he's commander of Home Fleet. Honor was Admiral of the Fleet after First Manticore until enough new construction came through for a new Eighth Fleet to be formed, at which point she went to pay a call on Eloise Pritchart. Sebastian D'Orville was Admiral of the Fleet in OBS; in SVW he was commanding the fleet defending Grayson (until Hamish was sent there for Third Yeltsin, at least) and was back as Admiral of the Fleet for First Manticore. Leaving command of Home Fleet for another fleet command isn't a demotion, it's a standard part of the RMN's flag officer rotation policy/



Nope, Eighth Fleet was not rebuilt, Home Fleet was rebuilt out of repaired units e.g. HMS King Roger III suffered compansator failure IIRC after scraping of the bulkheads of 'tomato paste' she would be perfectly fine. Eighth Fleet took over as Home Fleet for about six T-months. Also Admiral of the Fleet is a rank, it is only held by CO Home Fleet.
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Re: What will Admiral Higgins' next command be?
Post by munroburton   » Sat May 14, 2016 4:28 pm

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Dafmeister wrote:Admiral of the Fleet isn't a rank per se, it just means he's commander of Home Fleet. Honor was Admiral of the Fleet after First Manticore until enough new construction came through for a new Eighth Fleet to be formed, at which point she went to pay a call on Eloise Pritchart. Sebastian D'Orville was Admiral of the Fleet in OBS; in SVW he was commanding the fleet defending Grayson (until Hamish was sent there for Third Yeltsin, at least) and was back as Admiral of the Fleet for First Manticore. Leaving command of Home Fleet for another fleet command isn't a demotion, it's a standard part of the RMN's flag officer rotation policy/


It is a rank - a special, temporary six-star rank that's limited to one active holder at any time. Comes with an extra globe for the collar insignia and an extra gold stripe for the sleeves.

It does get rotated around the RMN's senior admirals. The whole point of this rank is to clarify the seniority issues arising from this - if they had 12 full admirals in Home Fleet(which historically contained 100% of the RMN's battle wall and rarely set foot outside the home system), it could get slightly tricky when the current Home Fleet CO is junior to those he commands.
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Re: What will Admiral Higgins' next command be?
Post by Louis R   » Sat May 14, 2016 8:15 pm

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It would actually be an appointment, not a rank. Much the same way that Field Marshall is in the British Army, except that you generally get to keep your baton once it's given to you.

munroburton wrote:
Dafmeister wrote:Admiral of the Fleet isn't a rank per se, it just means he's commander of Home Fleet. Honor was Admiral of the Fleet after First Manticore until enough new construction came through for a new Eighth Fleet to be formed, at which point she went to pay a call on Eloise Pritchart. Sebastian D'Orville was Admiral of the Fleet in OBS; in SVW he was commanding the fleet defending Grayson (until Hamish was sent there for Third Yeltsin, at least) and was back as Admiral of the Fleet for First Manticore. Leaving command of Home Fleet for another fleet command isn't a demotion, it's a standard part of the RMN's flag officer rotation policy/


It is a rank - a special, temporary six-star rank that's limited to one active holder at any time. Comes with an extra globe for the collar insignia and an extra gold stripe for the sleeves.

It does get rotated around the RMN's senior admirals. The whole point of this rank is to clarify the seniority issues arising from this - if they had 12 full admirals in Home Fleet(which historically contained 100% of the RMN's battle wall and rarely set foot outside the home system), it could get slightly tricky when the current Home Fleet CO is junior to those he commands.
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Re: What will Admiral Higgins' next command be?
Post by Erls   » Sat May 14, 2016 10:29 pm

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Louis R wrote:It would actually be an appointment, not a rank. Much the same way that Field Marshall is in the British Army, except that you generally get to keep your baton once it's given to you.

munroburton wrote:
It is a rank - a special, temporary six-star rank that's limited to one active holder at any time. Comes with an extra globe for the collar insignia and an extra gold stripe for the sleeves.

It does get rotated around the RMN's senior admirals. The whole point of this rank is to clarify the seniority issues arising from this - if they had 12 full admirals in Home Fleet(which historically contained 100% of the RMN's battle wall and rarely set foot outside the home system), it could get slightly tricky when the current Home Fleet CO is junior to those he commands.


Here is an out of the box suggestion for Higgins: Saganami Island. Yup, why not rotate Higgins into a spot as the Commandant as SI? If he is viewed in good graces by the powers that be (as evidenced by his role a Admiral of the Fleet), then Commandant of SI would be a suitable position for him. Beyond that, he would be in the greatest possible position to impart the view that sacrificing your units and sailors on a fools errand is stupid and not what the RMN does. By having someone like Higgins, who made the hard call, in such a prestigious position teaching the next generation the RMN would be sending a strong signal that when the odds say 'slaughter' a real RMN officer is not scared too admit defeat and live to fight another day.

If he is coupled without someone like Aivars or Oversteegan as the senior Tactical Instructor that would send a great message to the middies. Be aggressive, but be smart.
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