The best fiction tells the truth, carefully edited..

phillies wrote:"Not even equal representation in the Senate is impossible to change under those conditions."

There is a substantial legal argument -- you need a vote that matches the rule being changed -- that changing that requirement uniquely requires unanimous agreement of the 50 states.

Louis R wrote:Just to make it absolutely clear, herewith the text of Article Five:

Article 5 wrote:The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.

As you can see, not only can state legislatures not directly propose amendments, the population has no direct say in the process at _any_ point. Get 2/3 of America's sitting politicians on board and anything goes. Literally. Not even equal representation in the Senate is impossible to change under those conditions.

Vince wrote:No for the 2/3 requirement of anything goes. Especially in the case of equal representation in the Senate. Why? Because you overlooked the additional 3/4 requirement of all state legislatures or state ratification conventions to vote in favor of a proposed amendment in order to ratify an amendment and make it part of the Constitution.

It takes 38* of 50 states to ratify an amendment. An amendment can be blocked by only 13* of 50 states.

There is only the Honorverse's proverbial chance of a snowflake in Hell that enough state legislatures will vote to ratify an amendment that would remove equal representation by state in the Senate.

Currently, 7 states have only 1 Representative in the House**, 5 have 2 Representatives, 3 states have 3 Representatives, and 6 states have 4 Representatives. The average number of representatives per state is 8.7***, not rounded off. Just the number of states with 1 or 2 Representatives is 12*. It only takes one more state* to block an amendment that would disadvantage the smaller (in terms of population) states. The smaller states will never be in favor of a change that will reduce their power directly not only in the Legislative branch (the Senate) of the government, but the Executive branch (the Presidency****) as well.

* These numbers will change as the total number of states change.

** Representation in the US House of Representatives is determined by (formula) a states population relative to the total population of the states (not the nation, citizens of the US who are residents of a territory, as opposed to a state, do not count in this formula), which never gives a state never less than one Representative.

*** 435 representatives / 50 states.

**** The total number of votes each state has in the Electoral College (which actually directly votes for the President) is the total number of Representative and Senatorial seats allocated to the state.

DDHv wrote:{snip - htm}
It is interesting to compare the Confederate constitution
with the US constitution

kzt wrote:And by the time the war was over the "states rights" confederacy had pretty much ignored much of their actual written constitution to keep the war going. Which is pretty much what I expect the SL would in reality do if this wasn't a book where the ending is already known.

boballab wrote:

kzt wrote:And by the time the war was over the "states rights" confederacy had pretty much ignored much of their actual written constitution to keep the war going. Which is pretty much what I expect the SL would in reality do if this wasn't a book where the ending is already known.

It can be argued that the SL has already done that in the books with the sending of Filareta to Manticore without a declaration of war passing the assembly. It will have done it when they try and strip the ability to secede from the constitution with what they are planing on doing to Beowulf.

boballab wrote:It can be argued that the SL has already done that in the books with the sending of Filareta to Manticore without a declaration of war passing the assembly. It will have done it when they try and strip the ability to secede from the constitution with what they are planing on doing to Beowulf.

Louis R wrote:I'm not sure how it escaped your attention, but probably 90% of America's sitting politicians do _not_ sit in Washington. Which means that if you get 2/3 of the total you should easily reach 2/3 of state legislators. I will admit that that 2/3 assumes equal or near-equal distribution, but if you really had that many, it would come pretty close - number of politicians doesn't actually track population as closely as number of auto mechanics or dentists does. So 2/3 of all politicians would translate to a super-majority in most if not all state legislatures. And how many actually require more than a simple majority for amendments to the _federal_ constitution? I know many do have more complex mechanisms for amending the state constitution, but who applies them to the US document? With an adequate majority in congress and enough legislatures, any amendment will go through.

Changing equal representation is slightly trickier, since by my reading all 50 states would have to ratify that, or they could be deemed not to have consented. But 2/3 over all almost guarantees a simple majority in every state, so as long as that is sufficient... Interestingly, changing the number of senators per state would not require unanimity as long as every state got the same number.

Just to make it absolutely clear, herewith the text of Article Five:

"Article 5"]The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.

Vince wrote:No for the 2/3 requirement of anything goes. Especially in the case of equal representation in the Senate. Why? Because you overlooked the additional 3/4 requirement of all state legislatures or state ratification conventions to vote in favor of a proposed amendment in order to ratify an amendment and make it part of the Constitution.

It takes 38* of 50 states to ratify an amendment. An amendment can be blocked by only 13* of 50 states.

There is only the Honorverse's proverbial chance of a snowflake in Hell that enough state legislatures will vote to ratify an amendment that would remove equal representation by state in the Senate.

Currently, 7 states have only 1 Representative in the House**, 5 have 2 Representatives, 3 states have 3 Representatives, and 6 states have 4 Representatives. The average number of representatives per state is 8.7***, not rounded off. Just the number of states with 1 or 2 Representatives is 12*. It only takes one more state* to block an amendment that would disadvantage the smaller (in terms of population) states. The smaller states will never be in favor of a change that will reduce their power directly not only in the Legislative branch (the Senate) of the government, but the Executive branch (the Presidency****) as well.

* These numbers will change as the total number of states change.

** Representation in the US House of Representatives is determined by (formula) a states population relative to the total population of the states (not the nation, citizens of the US who are residents of a territory, as opposed to a state, do not count in this formula), which never gives a state never less than one Representative.

*** 435 representatives / 50 states.

**** The total number of votes each state has in the Electoral College (which actually directly votes for the President) is the total number of Representative and Senatorial seats allocated to the state.

kzt wrote:

boballab wrote:It can be argued that the SL has already done that in the books with the sending of Filareta to Manticore without a declaration of war passing the assembly. It will have done it when they try and strip the ability to secede from the constitution with what they are planing on doing to Beowulf.

I expect they will get very creative about ways to fund the war. And people who object will get the opportunity to discuss it in court. In a few years after being held incommunicado in "protective custody". See the ways Woodrow Wilson "discouraged discussion" about his march to go to war for Wall Street and DuPont.

saber964 wrote:FYI the League Assembly is more like the United Nations General Assembly than any national legislative branch of government.