Roland Peacetime duties

darrell wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:
Cite? You won't find one. Not "my drawing". "My model" is what I've said. And what difference will it make if I post a wireframe of my model (it would have to be a wireframe, since otherwise you won't be able to see it)? You won't believe it anyway, by your own admission, since it's not directly from David.

And no, I'm not going to call him or drive 20 minutes just to ask him personally, "Pretty please could you settle a dispute?" Not for something this petty.

As for "refusing" to release or post a wireframe, nothing requires me to do that, and due to an NDA, I *AM* required to get permission to do so. I've been given blanket permission for externals, and limited internals for the Star Knight, but other than that? No. And I'm not going to ask, because it's not necessary. The other members of BuNine have their own projects to work on, as well as real life, and I'm not going to bother them either. They trust me to release or discuss what I've been given permission for, and what I can discuss otherwise.

Because my MODELS are based on drawings from other BuNine members, any release of those drawings is up to those who made them, not me.

Since Duckk is *ALSO* a BuNine member, I'm sure he's seen this "discussion" since it started. If he felt it was necessary to get ahold of Tom or anyone else who knows about the armor to settle this, I'd think he already would have. Not that it would matter to you - see last sentence of first paragraph.

Edit to add: Weird Harold mentioned it before I did...

Edit #2: I don't "guess" anything with these models. They are based as closely as possible on the drawings I am given, and in cases where a 3D version of something doesn't fit because a 2D drawing is missing a D, we have discussions about it and make appropriate changes - either to the model, the drawing, or both.

I will accept that for non-disclosure reasons you can't share the detailed drawing.

In all your statements you have not said that RFS said the roland chase armor is 7 meters.

When you were creating the drawing of the roland did RFC specifically state to you that the rolands chase armor is 7 meters thick?

From what you say you do have direct contact with RFC when needed. I would not expect you to "drive 20 miles" to resolve a dispute, but the next time you talk or email RFC, it should be easy enough to add a question something on the lines of:

There is a dispute on armor thickness. How thick is the chase armor on the roland.

For now though, I am content to let it go until you or someone else can get a specific answer from RFC if you are.

MODELS, not drawings.

...and...

MINUTES, not miles.

Lastly, no, I haven't said that RFC has told me that the armor is seven meters thick, because he never has. That comes from others in BuNine, who take care of that sort of thing. That's kinda what we do, and we have David's full support on what we do. I believe somewhere in the past few years, he may have even made a post saying that.

What he's actually said is that the drawing shows a 7 meter space between the skin and the area with equipment and that is nominally the armor. Given that it's an armor system, not a single plate, that doesn't seem unreasonable.

It's my impression that Bu9 has only helped improve the Honorverse.

kzt wrote:What he's actually said is that the drawing shows a 7 meter space between the skin and the area with equipment and that is nominally the armor. Given that it's an armor system, not a single plate, that doesn't seem unreasonable.

It's my impression that Bu9 has only helped improve the Honorverse.

What a nice thing to say. Thank you.

The thread was potential Roland Peacetimes duties. At this point there is still a war on and, although only the GA and friends are admitting to it, there is still going to effectivly be a war on after whatever happen to the SL and the 2nd or third round of sorting out the framgments and shifting amalgamations of political entities after the SL starts to collapse.

So the Rolands are going to be active in the warfighting game (for which they were optimized with the new missiles etc) for quite some time. Even presuming peace breaks out in the area currently know as the SL and the spaces under OFS control and influence, there are still going to be two major missions for which the Roland will be very useful. 1 is convoy escort work and the other is bringing the war to the Alignment where it can be found.

In the meantime Manticore is not able to build anything for a while and unless they have new designs ready to build as test ships AND HAVE THE CAPASITY TO DO THOSE IN ADDITION TO going back into production with the current designs they need for the pressent SL war, there will be Rolands being used until they have to be scrapped from damage. As soon as they have better ships to meet the evolving mission parameters, they will start building those.

Hell, a 7 year old. trained, Doberman Pincer (like a 25yr old DDM DD) makes a hell of a guard dog for the walk down to the store. 1st it's intimidating as hell, 2nd, an attacker still has to get though the defense and unless you are talking trained person with firearm, (taking on the dog) the attacker might do well if they survive just threatening an encounter and get arrested.

Brigade XO wrote:The thread was potential Roland Peacetimes duties. At this point there is still a war on and, although only the GA and friends are admitting to it, there is still going to effectivly be a war on after whatever happen to the SL and the 2nd or third round of sorting out the framgments and shifting amalgamations of political entities after the SL starts to collapse.

So the Rolands are going to be active in the warfighting game (for which they were optimized with the new missiles etc) for quite some time. Even presuming peace breaks out in the area currently know as the SL and the spaces under OFS control and influence, there are still going to be two major missions for which the Roland will be very useful. 1 is convoy escort work and the other is bringing the war to the Alignment where it can be found.

In the meantime Manticore is not able to build anything for a while and unless they have new designs ready to build as test ships AND HAVE THE CAPASITY TO DO THOSE IN ADDITION TO going back into production with the current designs they need for the pressent SL war, there will be Rolands being used until they have to be scrapped from damage. As soon as they have better ships to meet the evolving mission parameters, they will start building those.

Hell, a 7 year old. trained, Doberman Pincer (like a 25yr old DDM DD) makes a hell of a guard dog for the walk down to the store. 1st it's intimidating as hell, 2nd, an attacker still has to get though the defense and unless you are talking trained person with firearm, (taking on the dog) the attacker might do well if they survive just threatening an encounter and get arrested.

Rolands aren't very good at the anti-piracy role, though. No Marines to board pirates or prizes, and nowhere near the kind of crew to supply prize crews.
Per Shadows of Saganami, even a Sag-C doesn't really have the crew to allow for significant off-ship detachments like that.


Maybe Rolands could be used for convoy escorts, probably in conjunction with a larger ship, perhaps an even older legacy ship for supplying Marines and prize crews.


Actually, I'm starting to suspect that with the automation advances, the RMN might start employing less integrated Marine components, or allowing for the option, while perhaps retaining the training. That would allow for ships to slice off more/larger groups for detached assignments such as prize crews, and let them have more bodies for damage control and boarding duties.



As far as the war with the SLN goes ... once Manticore can start building its own ships again ... I'm not sure I'd both with continuing to build Rolands - they don't really have the ammo capacity for extended deployments. Of the known and seen existing designs, I'd probably build mostly just Sag-Cs, Nikes, SD(P)s, CLACs, and LACs (probably mostly Katanas and Ferrets, and fewer, if any, Shrikes).
And frankly, I'd want a proper MDM combat paradigm successor to the light combatants as soon as possible, which probably means working out how to add the defensive and lightspeed elements of Keyhole in the smallest possible package, whether that's a refined version of Keyhole 1 or a stripped down version, at best, that guts the broadsides on a ship the size of a Sag-C, but more likely you'll need a larger ship, which will probably end up in the 750kt-800kt range, especially when you add in the requirements for all the other defensive advances we haven't seen.


Actually, the one place Rolands will likely serve the longest is probably in the quick reaction forces to check out potential hyper translations detected by system sensor arrays. The Roland's weaknesses don't really hurt it in that capacity. No Marines? So what? Limited engagement endurance? Either any engagement is quickly decisive in its favor or heavy combatants are coming as reinforcements.

Kytheros wrote:Maybe Rolands could be used for convoy escorts, probably in conjunction with a larger ship, perhaps an even older legacy ship for supplying Marines and prize crews.

If Rolands are used as convoy escorts, there's no real need for another type of warship; just include a Joint Service Transport with extra missiles, a marine contingent, prize crews, and whatever other supplies a Roland division might need.

Commerce protection is really the only peacetime role Rolands are suitable for. Small crews and short engagement endurance means they have to be accompanied by something. They either have to have transports in convoy or serve as a screen with other, larger, ships that can cover for their shortcomings; at minimum they need to operate in division (4-ship) strength, which would negate some of their advantages.

Weird Harold wrote:

Kytheros wrote:Maybe Rolands could be used for convoy escorts, probably in conjunction with a larger ship, perhaps an even older legacy ship for supplying Marines and prize crews.

If Rolands are used as convoy escorts, there's no real need for another type of warship; just include a Joint Service Transport with extra missiles, a marine contingent, prize crews, and whatever other supplies a Roland division might need.

Commerce protection is really the only peacetime role Rolands are suitable for. Small crews and short engagement endurance means they have to be accompanied by something. They either have to have transports in convoy or serve as a screen with other, larger, ships that can cover for their shortcomings; at minimum they need to operate in division (4-ship) strength, which would negate some of their advantages.

Why a transport. Just pack a few missiles and supplies int the cargo hold of one of the ships being protected.

and actually probably don't even need missiles. A rolands 240 missiles will be able to take out multiple CA's, and pirates are unlikely to attack with heavier than a single frigate.

darrell wrote:Why a transport. Just pack a few missiles and supplies int the cargo hold of one of the ships being protected.

You have to bring the marines back home with you.

Just one thing on Armour. The difference in Armour of a Nike and a SD was not the thickness of the Armour plate but the empty space between the armour plate and the important stuff it is protecting.

Now let us assume Seven metres of Armour is lots. We have no idea if the armour is heavy 5000G compressed metals or if it is prismatic absorbing aerogel's that weight next to nothing but eliminate the massive shock of Graser hit. Add in a couple metres of empty space held in place by magnetic sealed star slab armour plates 3mm thick.

Weird Harold wrote:

Kytheros wrote:
Commerce protection is really the only peacetime role Rolands are suitable for. Small crews and short engagement endurance means they have to be accompanied by something. They either have to have transports in convoy or serve as a screen with other, larger, ships that can cover for their shortcomings; at minimum they need to operate in division (4-ship) strength, which would negate some of their advantages.

Disagree with you here. In peacetime, the fleet splits into two major elements. Core striking forces/high end war fighters and the dispersed commerce protection/flag showers/colonial gunboat duties.

Rolands are great for the war fighter/strike fleet duties. They are good scouts, they can contribute to the sensor shells, they can be part of the integrated missile defense system etc. They can't easily do all of the other things that a light escort needs to do in peacetime, so keep the survivors with the strike fleet while having Wolfhounds and the next generation post Oyster Bay destroyers and light cruisers cover those other duties as assigned.