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Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?

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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri May 06, 2016 1:00 am

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kzt wrote:Can you show what evidence leads you to conclude that the DDM version of the SLN missiles isn't exactly what the text says it is, the missile with a CM bolted to it?


Most of what we know about Cataphracts:

Torch Of Freedom
Chapter Fifty-eight wrote:
So they'd taken another approach as an intermediate step. The Cataphract was a rather basic concept, actually—they'd simply grafted what amounted to an entire counter-missile drive unit onto the end of a standard shipkiller. Coming up with an arrangement which let them cram that much impeller power and a worthwhile laser head into something they could fit onto the end of a standard missile had demanded quite a bit of ingenuity (and not a few basic compromises), but it had been a far easier task than duplicating a full scale multidrive missile would have been.

There were drawbacks, of course; there always were, and especially so in what had to be a compromise solution.

The weapon carried only half as many lasing rods as a standard laser head. Worse, the Cataphract was twenty percent longer than a standard missile of any given weight, which meant it would no longer fit into launch tubes which had been designed to handle the single-drive missile upon which it was based. The Cataphract-C, built around the SLN's Trebuchet capital missile, could be fired only out of one of the missile pods the MAN hadn't seen fit to offer Citizen Commodore Luff. The Cataphract-B, based on the Javelin missile intended for the League's battlecruisers and heavy cruisers, could be fired from a standard superdreadnought missile tube, but not by an Indefatigable or a Warlord-C. But Luff's battlecruisers could fire the Cataphract-A, based on the Spatha, the SLN's new-model destroyer and light cruiser shipkiller. His Mars-Cs could have, as well, but only the battlecruisers had been supplied with the new weapon, and even they carried only enough of them for a dozen full broadsides.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri May 06, 2016 1:13 am

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kzt wrote:Can you show what evidence leads you to conclude that the DDM version of the SLN missiles isn't exactly what the text says it is, the missile with a CM bolted to it?

I thought I'd done that, though I just did find a new tidbit.

Mission of Honor describes it as "Cataphract, a variant of their own based on taking the standard missile bodies for the SLN’s new-generation anti-ship missiles and adding what amounted to a separate final stage carrying a standard laser head and a counter-missile’s drive system." [Yeah, there's that separate stage I kept thinking of]


But to reiterate the points from my prior posts:
(admittedly many of these were inference based on what we're told of the Cataphract not appearing to work if the CM was just bolted to the back)
1) Bolting a CM drive unit to the back of a standard missile does not appear to size restrict the terminal bus; however text-ev ToF clearly states the terminal bus size is restricted (compared to the standard missile each cataphract is based on) and explains all the negative impacts that that causes.

2) grafting a CM drive unit to the rear (near the standard missile drive) doesn't appear to provide sufficient physical separation to keep the CM drive functional. (Why nobody had build MDMs until Manticore figured out a workaound; one the MAlign wasn't able to directly duplicate (yet?))

3) The text-ev from ToF talks about cramming the CM drive's "impeller power and a worthwhile laser head into something they could fit onto the end of a standard missile" making it seem like they went together on the same end - and I do agree the warhead is up front; so if the CM is with it it's up front as well.

Hope that clears up what was driving my visualization of the Cataphracts.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by kzt   » Fri May 06, 2016 1:25 am

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Ok, I'll buy that.

Though it has been mentioned by several different PoV characters at different times that in theory you could just bolt full sized missiles together to produce a totally impractical MDM. Which raises the question about how impractical something is when it's the only solution you have.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri May 06, 2016 2:14 am

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kzt wrote:Though it has been mentioned by several different PoV characters at different times that in theory you could just bolt full sized missiles together to produce a totally impractical MDM. Which raises the question about how impractical something is when it's the only solution you have.


Bolting two or more full-sized missiles together might work for system defense but you'd have to design a huge pod or figure out some other way to launch them. Early on in the series (HotQ?) it is mentioned that ground/moon based system defense missiles were much bigger and longer ranged than shipboard missiles. The Technodyne system defense pods in Monica were single drive missiles that were too big for shipboard use.

No matter how desperate you are, a missile design that is nearly as big as the ship you want to fire it from is not really practical.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by MaxxQ   » Fri May 06, 2016 2:58 am

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Theemile wrote:Why don't we ask.

MaxxQ, have you done a render of a Cataphract yet?


Nope.

Everything I've done is up on my Deviant Art page, except the Highlander, which still needs some changes before I feel it's ready for posting.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by darrell   » Fri May 06, 2016 3:22 am

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munroburton wrote:
darrell wrote:Where do you get the total number of inhabited systems is about 4,000? Please supply your citation.


The data for that was dropped in Crown of Slaves, I think. WEB Du Havel implies that there were around that many known systems. Not quite hard data, but Du Havel had political degrees from various universities for studying different political systems.

Somewhere else, it's said that there are between 10 to 100 unknown, lost, utterly worthless, secret, too-distant or simply too newly colonised systems to register for every one that is known.


Try again. I asked for specifics and you gave me "I think." Nowhere in COS could I find a reference to how many inhabited worlds there were.

I did a search of CoS for colony, colonies, inhabited, planet and system and came up with only two relevant refrance. Quote CoS:

The Solarian League as a whole has an official membership of 1,784 planets—that's not counting the hundreds more under Solarian rule in the Protectorates—which exist in a volume of galactic space measuring between three and four hundred light-years in diameter.

Quote CoS:
Yildun's location, roughly a hundred and eighty-three light-years from Earth, put the A1 star almost exactly on the boundary between the ultra-civilized core planets of the original League and the more recently settled systems whose attitude towards things commercial

so that places the core worlds between 150-200 LY from SOL, the shell between 300-400 LY, with 1,784 planets in both the core worlds and shell members, not counting the protectorate planets.

http://www.davidweber.net/files/downloa ... eline2.pdf
October 24, 775 PD: The sublight colony ship Jason departs the Sol System for the Manticore Binary System.

If the human race has spread out to 512 LY in 775 years, it is probable that they have spread out 1255 LY or more in 1900 years. That would be between 55,099 and 130,606 inhabited worlds.

if we use a much more modest growth and human expansion is only 600-800 LY from sol, that would be 14,272 inhabited worlds. I would consider this a minimum, because that would mean that roughly the same number of colonies per year were colonized in the first 1,000 years as in the last 1,000 years. Remember that for the first 500 years only earth only one planet was sending off colony ships, but the last 500 years there were many. (Beowulf and haven for example have multiple daughter colonies.)
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by munroburton   » Fri May 06, 2016 8:02 am

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Oh, it's probably in the second Torch book, then. Or maybe one of the short stories. Oh well.

The 4,000 number isn't directly dropped; it was painfully put together using multiple sources of textev put together and is therefore pure guesswork. I'm damned if I'm going to dig it all up again - just trawl through my post history, it's down there somewhere.

The important part is the League's real membership numbers, plus its protectorates official and unofficial. That doesn't really exceed what, two and a half thousand in total? Still means they should have way more ships than they do systems if they do have over ten thousand lighter units in Frontier Fleet.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by munroburton   » Fri May 06, 2016 11:45 am

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Apology for snippy tone above. Been up all night watching election results coming in.

Anyway, I had a look myself. The two threads I was thinking of are:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4703
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4481

As it happens, I don't think anyone ever reached a firm conclusion about how many inhabited systems outside the League there are. It's an imponderable.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by noblehunter   » Fri May 06, 2016 1:07 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:Yes, most of you have covered this before and I suspect you will covering it again. That however, does not ignore the pesky fact that there is no way the GA can take on and defeat the Sollies.

What you have here is an arms race. Yep the GA has the advantage right now. But do not forget the Mesans. Their job is to destroy both the Sollies and the GA. How will they do this? By being nice?

Nope. Mesan tech given to the Sollies. Vast new Sollie new construction. They will out build the GA at least 100 to one. Again, do the math. The graphs cross in about one year. After that?

It will be all over for the GA. It will be all over for Manticore. The new tech Sollie builds will overwhelm and destroy the GA. This goes against the fuzzy feelie notion of HH always winning.

She will for awhile. She will try the Harrington Plan. Probably will not work. All she will do is piss off the 1700 industrialized Sollie planets. Plus all the verge Sollie controlled systems.

Yes this goes again the grain and false consensus here. Lots of hand waving. My analysis is based on real world potentials. Not science fiction. David may do anything. Be fun reading it.

Respectfully. I love this Forum. :)

And how would the SL pay for this massive new building program? Tax the Core Worlds? How do you convince them there's a threat if there aren't even plans to activate the Reserve. The Sollies make the EU look like an examplar of effective decision-making and 1916 Russia a pillar of stability.

Giving tech to the Sollies? How would the MA stop all the tech they're sharing from ending up in GA hands? There's no way the MA will risk losing control of the spider drive and streak drive. It's pretty much their only hope of pulling off their grand plan.

Real world potentials? Sure, imagine the US's response to Pearl Harbor given 18th century communication lag and the need to hold a constitutional convention before effective action can be taken. All while the South, New York, and everything west of the Missippi is thinking about leaving the Union. And the entire USN consists of 15th century carricks.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri May 06, 2016 5:43 pm

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kzt wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:The SLN doesn't have coast-capable missile tech. Their DDMs are crude with nowhere near the range of GA DDMs.

Please provide a cite for that.


Coast requires a powerplant capable of lighting off the next stage.
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