Roland Peacetime duties

rolond does the job but you would be better off using the Wolfhound.

for convoy protection against standard silisa type pirates it is all you need. lacks the DDMs which make the roland so nasty but it is still a very capable platform and is a bit more flexible being a general purpose design rather then a 100% war fighter theat can probably muddle through other duties.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:Isn't Agamemnon a BC or am I mistaking?

Skimpy thinks that all BC(P)s be converted to "escort CLACs" with a bare squadron of LACS for commerce protection.

The problem of course is that LACs are surprisingly big compared to a BC, so you couldn't fit many into the available area of a BC sized ship.

But sometimes it appears that numbers are things that happen to other people, not Skimper.

darrell wrote:The Rolands are really good at some roles, so I don't see them disappearing soon.

They are horrible at other rolls, so I don't see a lot more of them built.

IMO their biggest advantage is to bring a lot of firepower to bear in a short engagement. Their disadvantages are a lack of ammunition storage and no marines.

I'd add lack of brig space and lack of depth in naval crew, and probably undersized medical crew / space (when compared to an old-style DD).
They've got the firepower for commerce protection, but once they win the fight they're poorly equipped to handle the aftermath (assuming they didn't just blow the attackers to dust) - and I'm not even talking about the immediate lack of Marines for boarding parties; there are issues after the boarding is over.


Normally at some point the pirate or commerce raider surrenders. And even outright pirates aren't usually summarily executed; so you need a way to security lock them up until you can hand them over for prosecution. Even if Manticore did let the lack of brig space change their SOP on pirates that doesn't help if if was a naval unit performing commerce raiding. Their crew would be covered by POW rules - you have to provide appropriate care and transport them safely to a POW camp.

Lack of people for prize crews is also an issue. Most pirate ships probably aren't worth bringing in, just destroy in place. But again captured naval commerce raiders you probably want to bring in to let your intel people crawl over them. And if you recapture a pirated freighter the owners and insurance aren't going to be happy if you had to destroy it because you didn't have the spare crew to detach to bring it home.


I suspect in the short term post war (unless Cataphracts of ERMs get much more widespread) that Rolands will normally be tasked directly to Fleets and Wolfhounds DDs and Avalons CLs will take the bulk of the anti-piracy and commerce protection duties. Their smaller missiles lack the range of the Mk16, but still out-range almost everybody else's missiles. And they were designed as the next gen classic DDs and CLs, not a bare bones heavy combat focused specialist like the Roland.

Dauntless wrote:Roland does the job but you would be better off using the Wolfhound.

for convoy protection against standard silisa type pirates it is all you need. lacks the DDMs which make the roland so nasty ...

DDMs give Rolands a longer reach, so fewer ships are needed to keep a given sphere of protection in-range. That effectively means bigger convoys can be protected by the same or fewer ships.

For simple convoy protection, I'd choose Rolands. For search and destroy anti-piracy missions, I'd want a mix of Rolands and most any legacy ship type capable of using ERM or LERM missiles. Essentially the Rolands would still be "convoy protection" by providing the "big guns" against unexpected strength in the target fleet/base.

Weird Harold wrote:

Dauntless wrote:Roland does the job but you would be better off using the Wolfhound.

for convoy protection against standard silisa type pirates it is all you need. lacks the DDMs which make the roland so nasty ...

DDMs give Rolands a longer reach, so fewer ships are needed to keep a given sphere of protection in-range. That effectively means bigger convoys can be protected by the same or fewer ships.

For simple convoy protection, I'd choose Rolands. For search and destroy anti-piracy missions, I'd want a mix of Rolands and most any legacy ship type capable of using ERM or LERM missiles. Essentially the Rolands would still be "convoy protection" by providing the "big guns" against unexpected strength in the target fleet/base.

The thing is, a ERM/LERM isn't exactly a short ranged missile. Yes a Mk16 can reach out to 30M km without any ballistic phase (and of course to indefinite range with that coast phase).
But best guess I've been able to extract for ERM numbers is still about 16.4M km; a significant bump from the 7.9M km which is the best shipboard SDM range we've seen (and most people's are more in the 6.7-7.3M km range).

That's enough range that an Avalon could sit in the middle of a convoy and simultaneously engage attackers from all point before any of them entered their own effective missile range of any of the convoy's ships.
Now there's no question that a Roland could do it sooner, or be better able to react if it moved towards one enemy and another popped up on the backside of the convoy. But an 8 million km range advantage is still damned nice (while it lasts).

At this point all else being equal I'd be tempted to make convoy escorts 50% Roland, 50% Wolfhound/Avalon (from say, 1 to 3 pairs depending on convoy size/value). That gives you a balanced mix of super-long range striking power, combat endurance, and manpower to deal with boarding parties, prisoners, etc, etc.

Jonathan_S wrote:At this point all else being equal I'd be tempted to make convoy escorts 50% Roland, 50% Wolfhound/Avalon (from say, 1 to 3 pairs depending on convoy size/value). That gives you a balanced mix of super-long range striking power, combat endurance, and manpower to deal with boarding parties, prisoners, etc, etc.

For simple convoy escorts, you want as much protection for as little cost as possible. The small crew size of a Roland is an advantage for that sort of consideration. If a need for a boarding party or brig space for prisoners is anticipated, space and support for a platoon or two of marines can be found among the freighters of the convoy without the crew cost of a shorter ranged escort.

Also, as has been suggested several times, If there is no flag officer embarked, there is the flag deck accommodations for marine housing or brig space. Minimal modification should be adequate for either purpose.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
DDMs give Rolands a longer reach, so fewer ships are needed to keep a given sphere of protection in-range. That effectively means bigger convoys can be protected by the same or fewer ships.

For simple convoy protection, I'd choose Rolands. For search and destroy anti-piracy missions, I'd want a mix of Rolands and most any legacy ship type capable of using ERM or LERM missiles. Essentially the Rolands would still be "convoy protection" by providing the "big guns" against unexpected strength in the target fleet/base.

The thing is, a ERM/LERM isn't exactly a short ranged missile. Yes a Mk16 can reach out to 30M km without any ballistic phase (and of course to indefinite range with that coast phase).
But best guess I've been able to extract for ERM numbers is still about 16.4M km; a significant bump from the 7.9M km which is the best shipboard SDM range we've seen (and most people's are more in the 6.7-7.3M km range).

That's enough range that an Avalon could sit in the middle of a convoy and simultaneously engage attackers from all point before any of them entered their own effective missile range of any of the convoy's ships.
Now there's no question that a Roland could do it sooner, or be better able to react if it moved towards one enemy and another popped up on the backside of the convoy. But an 8 million km range advantage is still damned nice (while it lasts).

At this point all else being equal I'd be tempted to make convoy escorts 50% Roland, 50% Wolfhound/Avalon (from say, 1 to 3 pairs depending on convoy size/value). That gives you a balanced mix of super-long range striking power, combat endurance, and manpower to deal with boarding parties, prisoners, etc, etc.

exactly an ERM is as good as the MAligns DDM pods, so using the older ships and wolfhounds/avalons for convoy duty lets the rolands be where they need to be, at the tip of the spear giving sollies fits that something that is only a bit smaller then one of their CAs is taking anything that attacks it apart from outside a range even their SDs with pods can't match.

Dauntless wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The thing is, a ERM/LERM isn't exactly a short ranged missile. Yes a Mk16 can reach out to 30M km without any ballistic phase (and of course to indefinite range with that coast phase).
But best guess I've been able to extract for ERM numbers is still about 16.4M km; a significant bump from the 7.9M km which is the best shipboard SDM range we've seen (and most people's are more in the 6.7-7.3M km range).[snip]

exactly an ERM is as good as the MAligns DDM pods, so using the older ships and wolfhounds/avalons for convoy duty lets the rolands be where they need to be, at the tip of the spear giving sollies fits that something that is only a bit smaller then one of their CAs is taking anything that attacks it apart from outside a range even their SDs with pods can't match.

Well I'd add the small caveat that, unlike ERMs, the MALign's Cataphract missiles have the option to arbitrarily extend the range using a ballistic coast phase (admittedly for a loss of accuracy).

So a well informed smart advisory, with sufficient Cataphracts, could attempt to stay out at least 17 million km and pick away at a ERM equipped ship. (Though given that RMN ships are the quickest in space that doesn't seem a winning strategy in actual practice)

Jonathan_S wrote:

Dauntless wrote:
exactly an ERM is as good as the MAligns DDM pods, so using the older ships and wolfhounds/avalons for convoy duty lets the rolands be where they need to be, at the tip of the spear giving sollies fits that something that is only a bit smaller then one of their CAs is taking anything that attacks it apart from outside a range even their SDs with pods can't match.

Well I'd add the small caveat that, unlike ERMs, the MALign's Cataphract missiles have the option to arbitrarily extend the range using a ballistic coast phase (admittedly for a loss of accuracy).

So a well informed smart advisory, with sufficient Cataphracts, could attempt to stay out at least 17 million km and pick away at a ERM equipped ship. (Though given that RMN ships are the quickest in space that doesn't seem a winning strategy in actual practice)

on Manticore's side of the scales, ERMs have larger warheads than Cataphracts do. The DD/CL ERM probably hits in the CA/BC range, and the CA ERM probably hits in the mid capitol range now, like the mk 16's warhead. Even if Manticore is stuck using old warheads, their warheads from internal launchers are still an entire level more powerful than what a similar SLN ship firing cataphracts can fire.

Meanwhile, a SLN DD/CL can only fire Cataphracts out of missile pods (and they can only tow 2 or 3 pods at that.), and CA/BC can fire the Cataphract A, which has a DD/CL warhead, and SD fire the B, with a CA/BC warhead. Even the Warhead on the hulking Cataphract C (which is only pod based) only hits in the low capitol range.

So, the SLN ships cannot tow as many missiles pods as RMN ships can, their missiles have weaker warheads, and the smallest SLN ships can not fire ERMs internaly.

Dauntless wrote:...using the older ships and wolfhounds/avalons for convoy duty lets the rolands be where they need to be, at the tip of the spear giving sollies fits...

This thread is about the peacetime role of Rolands; there is not going to be any "Sollies" left and no "tip of the spear" giving anyone fits.