Rayno will kill Clyntahn!

Just finished BSRA on my series re-read. Upon starting BHD I re-read Rayno's introduction. That scene has Rayno musing about the faults of great men. He recognizes. Clyntahn's addiction to sins of the flesh and compares these forgivable venal sins to serious cardinal sins like Inquisitors who revel in unnecessary cruelty.

This man has seen a man he admires expose his much graver faults in the following books. That expanded exposure and the threat the MHoGatA poses to his country's way of life pushes him to kill Clyntahn. I believe this is the equivalent of Lady North Hollow tongue out at her reflection in the mirror.

PeterZ wrote:Just finished BSRA on my series re-read. Upon starting BHD I re-read Rayno's introduction. That scene has Rayno musing about the faults of great men. He recognizes. Clyntahn's addiction to sins of the flesh and compares these forgivable venal sins to serious cardinal sins like Inquisitors who revel in unnecessary cruelty.

This man has seen a man he admires expose his much graver faults in the following books. That expanded exposure and the threat the MHoGatA poses to his country's way of life pushes him to kill Clyntahn. I believe this is the equivalent of Lady North Hollow tongue out at her reflection in the mirror.

The problem is that you can't have one without the other. Rayno is the RW equivalent of Beria, Stalin's head of the NKVD/KGB IIRC he was dead in less than a year of Stalin death. Rayon has no patrons in the Vicarit there for no protection.

Let's assume both Clyntahn and Rayno are true believers that recognize this about each other. Let us assume that both believe the other shares his core priorities. Clyntahn knows Rayno is more comfortable assisting and together they develop a solid working relationship.

Charis' rebellion, however, stresses Clyntahn to a degree that exposes his true core priorities. Those priorities are not Rayno's.

I believe that Clyntahn is moved at his core to aggregate power to the Church and his Office of the Inquisition for its own sake. Rayno believe that such power must serve to maintain the social structures that currently exist. This is especially true for HIS society of birth.

So, Charis' rebellion displays those characteristics that Rayno abhors in Clyntahn. Such as unnecessary cruelty in the pursuit of an Inquisitor's duty. Further, it shows just what Clyntahn is willing to do to aggregate power unto the Church and himself.

If confronted with total defeat of the jihad or the price of victory requiring the complete transformation of his society, will Rayno abide either? I suspect that if confronted with something similar, he will use his control of the security arrangements to kill Clyntahn and support Duchairn's coup.

saber964 wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Just finished BSRA on my series re-read. Upon starting BHD I re-read Rayno's introduction. That scene has Rayno musing about the faults of great men. He recognizes. Clyntahn's addiction to sins of the flesh and compares these forgivable venal sins to serious cardinal sins like Inquisitors who revel in unnecessary cruelty.

This man has seen a man he admires expose his much graver faults in the following books. That expanded exposure and the threat the MHoGatA poses to his country's way of life pushes him to kill Clyntahn. I believe this is the equivalent of Lady North Hollow tongue out at her reflection in the mirror.

The problem is that you can't have one without the other. Rayno is the RW equivalent of Beria, Stalin's head of the NKVD/KGB IIRC he was dead in less than a year of Stalin death. Rayon has no patrons in the Vicarit there for no protection.

It's worth remembering that Beria came pretty close to replacing Stalin. In fact, he might have done so had he kept in mind that even Stalin had needed allies and associates to keep his grip on power.

Rayno doesn't look to be the sort to make that mistake. Whether he can maintain those of Clyntahn's alliances that aren't dependent on knowledge of bodies and burial places is an open question - but he _does_ know where the bodies are buried, because he helped put so many of them away. That is going to make many very cautious in dealing with him.

saber964 wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Just finished BSRA on my series re-read. Upon starting BHD I re-read Rayno's introduction. That scene has Rayno musing about the faults of great men. He recognizes. Clyntahn's addiction to sins of the flesh and compares these forgivable venal sins to serious cardinal sins like Inquisitors who revel in unnecessary cruelty.

This man has seen a man he admires expose his much graver faults in the following books. That expanded exposure and the threat the MHoGatA poses to his country's way of life pushes him to kill Clyntahn. I believe this is the equivalent of Lady North Hollow tongue out at her reflection in the mirror.

The problem is that you can't have one without the other. Rayno is the RW equivalent of Beria, Stalin's head of the NKVD/KGB IIRC he was dead in less than a year of Stalin death. Rayon has no patrons in the Vicarit there for no protection.

Nod, Clyntahn believes that Rayno couldn't replace him but Rayno may have reasons to disagree.

However here's a thought, in a normal situation Rayno couldn't take over Clyntahn's job.

But during the "Holy War" things could be different.

It's possible that in the "Laws" associated with the Holy War, that there are "emergency provisions" regarding replacement of high-ranking individuals.

The Church couldn't afford to leave the Grand Inquisitor position vacant for the time that the normal rules for choosing the next Grand Inquisitor would require.

So Rayno kills Clyntahn (obviously in such a manner that he's not caught).

The Holy War Rules allow the Grand Vicar to name somebody as "temporary" Grand Inquisitor.

So instead of Rayno having to convince enough Vicars to name him Grand Inquisitor, Rayno only has to convince the Chancellor to have the Grand Vicar name him "temporary" Grand Inquisitor.

I think Rayno would be able to arrange that.

Louis R wrote:It's worth remembering that Beria came pretty close to replacing Stalin. In fact, he might have done so had he kept in mind that even Stalin had needed allies and associates to keep his grip on power.

Rayno doesn't look to be the sort to make that mistake. Whether he can maintain those of Clyntahn's alliances that aren't dependent on knowledge of bodies and burial places is an open question - but he _does_ know where the bodies are buried, because he helped put so many of them away. That is going to make many very cautious in dealing with him.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Nod, Clyntahn believes that Rayno couldn't replace him but Rayno may have reasons to disagree.

However here's a thought, in a normal situation Rayno couldn't take over Clyntahn's job.

But during the "Holy War" things could be different.

It's possible that in the "Laws" associated with the Holy War, that there are "emergency provisions" regarding replacement of high-ranking individuals.

The Church couldn't afford to leave the Grand Inquisitor position vacant for the time that the normal rules for choosing the next Grand Inquisitor would require.

So Rayno kills Clyntahn (obviously in such a manner that he's not caught).

The Holy War Rules allow the Grand Vicar to name somebody as "temporary" Grand Inquisitor.

So instead of Rayno having to convince enough Vicars to name him Grand Inquisitor, Rayno only has to convince the Chancellor to have the Grand Vicar name him "temporary" Grand Inquisitor.

I think Rayno would be able to arrange that.

Rayno might be able to arrange such a coup, but much would depend upon Clyntahn being just trusting enough to rely upon Rayno for his security arrangements (without having someone keep tabs on Rayno for him) and not so paranoid as to turn on Rayno at some inopportune moment (like some recent failure that is so spectacular that he has to feed someone to the slash lizards). Given how frayed Rayno's relationship is at the moment (where once Clyntahn genially greeted him and said he wished he had a dozen more subordinates like him) and how much more irrational Clyntahn is likely to get as the Church's position deteriorates, it's even money who he will turn on on whom once things really get bad.

But Clyntahn would only move on Rayno if he felt the Archbishop failed badly or else was "up to something". And Rayno would only try to move against Clyntahn if he felt the Grand Inquisitor's position falter enough to endanger his own position or in self defense against Clyntahn's excessive paranoia. My personal feeling is that Rayno would opt to escape the Temple and get far away from Clyntahn, with the option of defecting if doing so saved his life (in return for delivering the Church and the Inquisition into Charis' hands in any ceasefire or surrender agreement.

Having taken a look at Beria's involvement in the end of Stalin's career [and it wasn't Beria alone, he was just a bit more up-front about it], I suspect that Clyntahn's death will result from the much-anticipated popping of a gasket, and Rayno's involvement would be limited to making sure that the body had stopped twitching before yelling for the healers. At this point he doesn't even need to ensure that the reins of power in the Inquisition are firmly in his hands first.

thanatos wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:Nod, Clyntahn believes that Rayno couldn't replace him but Rayno may have reasons to disagree.

However here's a thought, in a normal situation Rayno couldn't take over Clyntahn's job.

But during the "Holy War" things could be different.

It's possible that in the "Laws" associated with the Holy War, that there are "emergency provisions" regarding replacement of high-ranking individuals.

The Church couldn't afford to leave the Grand Inquisitor position vacant for the time that the normal rules for choosing the next Grand Inquisitor would require.

So Rayno kills Clyntahn (obviously in such a manner that he's not caught).

The Holy War Rules allow the Grand Vicar to name somebody as "temporary" Grand Inquisitor.

So instead of Rayno having to convince enough Vicars to name him Grand Inquisitor, Rayno only has to convince the Chancellor to have the Grand Vicar name him "temporary" Grand Inquisitor.

I think Rayno would be able to arrange that.

Rayno might be able to arrange such a coup, but much would depend upon Clyntahn being just trusting enough to rely upon Rayno for his security arrangements (without having someone keep tabs on Rayno for him) and not so paranoid as to turn on Rayno at some inopportune moment (like some recent failure that is so spectacular that he has to feed someone to the slash lizards). Given how frayed Rayno's relationship is at the moment (where once Clyntahn genially greeted him and said he wished he had a dozen more subordinates like him) and how much more irrational Clyntahn is likely to get as the Church's position deteriorates, it's even money who he will turn on on whom once things really get bad.

But Clyntahn would only move on Rayno if he felt the Archbishop failed badly or else was "up to something". And Rayno would only try to move against Clyntahn if he felt the Grand Inquisitor's position falter enough to endanger his own position or in self defense against Clyntahn's excessive paranoia. My personal feeling is that Rayno would opt to escape the Temple and get far away from Clyntahn, with the option of defecting if doing so saved his life (in return for delivering the Church and the Inquisition into Charis' hands in any ceasefire or surrender agreement.

But where's the "fun" in Clyntahn dying of a real heart attack?

Mind you, I think Rayno would be in a good position to take over if that happened. (See my prior speculation.)

Louis R wrote:Having taken a look at Beria's involvement in the end of Stalin's career [and it wasn't Beria alone, he was just a bit more up-front about it], I suspect that Clyntahn's death will result from the much-anticipated popping of a gasket, and Rayno's involvement would be limited to making sure that the body had stopped twitching before yelling for the healers. At this point he doesn't even need to ensure that the reins of power in the Inquisition are firmly in his hands first.

I forget how long ago it was there was a thread about how things shake out with the Go4. In that thread I said then that either Clynthan ends up killing Ducharin which causes a riot to break out in the capital and during that Rayno kills Clynthan to save his own skin from the mob or that when given the order to kill Ducharin he knows there will be a revolt and kills Clynthan then. With the last couple books where we have the 2 armies from Harchong with the second one still on the way and with commanders that are not necessarily fans of Clyntahn I'm thinking there is a 3rd option. If you go and look at a map there is only 2 routes from Harchong to the front and if that second army is coming from the south the route they would take is through the capital. How much do you want to bet that Rayno strikes a deal with Ducharin knowing that there is no way to win the war with Charis but Clyntahn would never negotiate and must be removed. They fake a riot that breaks out just as that army arrives there. From there the Army is ordered to put down the revolt and "Protect the temple and the Grand Inquisitor". Rayno who Clyntahn has been relying more and more on through the books uses the confusion to off Clyntahn so that Ducharin and the others can negotiate and end to the war with Charis and of course he gets the Grand Inquisitor seat.

saber964 wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Just finished BSRA on my series re-read. Upon starting BHD I re-read Rayno's introduction. That scene has Rayno musing about the faults of great men. He recognizes. Clyntahn's addiction to sins of the flesh and compares these forgivable venal sins to serious cardinal sins like Inquisitors who revel in unnecessary cruelty.

This man has seen a man he admires expose his much graver faults in the following books. That expanded exposure and the threat the MHoGatA poses to his country's way of life pushes him to kill Clyntahn. I believe this is the equivalent of Lady North Hollow tongue out at her reflection in the mirror.

The problem is that you can't have one without the other. Rayno is the RW equivalent of Beria, Stalin's head of the NKVD/KGB IIRC he was dead in less than a year of Stalin death. Rayon has no patrons in the Vicarit there for no protection.

Rayno could also be the equivalent of St Just. He did not want the job but he still grabbed it with both hands. [I never could figure out how long he held it but]... he sure purged a lot of people in the short term.

Maybe Rayno kills Clyntahn and someone else knocks Rayno off... who was the captain that has been the body guard for Vicar Rhobair?