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The Economics of Piracy

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Re: The Economics of Piracy
Post by saber964   » Mon May 02, 2016 5:44 pm

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Here's another thought, what if your missile launcher that can only fire an obsolete missile system. One that is either no longer manufactured or manufactured in a limited way.

A RW example of this took place shortly after the USN retired the F-14 and sent them to the boneyard. Someone started ordering certain parts and equipment off the planes from AMARC until someone remembered that there was only one other military that flew F-14's, namely the Islamic Revolutionary Republic of Iran.
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Re: The Economics of Piracy
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon May 02, 2016 6:01 pm

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munroburton wrote:I'm surprised nobody has brought up Commodore Saganami yet. He demonstrated what happens to a pirate gang which got its hands on at least 4 BCs, 3 CAs, 18 CL & DDs, as well as basing facilities.

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Battle ... man's_Star
http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Carson

He was actually mentioned at least 4 times. But it's a big thread and easy to miss or forget things. :)
Certainly doesn't hurt to point him out again.
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Re: The Economics of Piracy
Post by Sigs   » Mon May 02, 2016 8:46 pm

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munroburton wrote:I'm surprised nobody has brought up Commodore Saganami yet. He demonstrated what happens to a pirate gang which got its hands on at least 4 BCs, 3 CAs, 18 CL & DDs, as well as basing facilities.

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Battle ... man's_Star
http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Carson



Pirates who were supported by someone else with something other than piracy on their mind. Comparing pirates, to nation states or even major corporations using piracy as a tool is inaccurate.
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Re: The Economics of Piracy
Post by cthia   » Mon May 02, 2016 9:33 pm

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Sigs wrote:
munroburton wrote:I'm surprised nobody has brought up Commodore Saganami yet. He demonstrated what happens to a pirate gang which got its hands on at least 4 BCs, 3 CAs, 18 CL & DDs, as well as basing facilities.

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Battle ... man's_Star
http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Carson



Pirates who were supported by someone else with something other than piracy on their mind. Comparing pirates, to nation states or even major corporations using piracy as a tool is inaccurate.

Nice try, Sigs. But there ain't no way you can dig yourself outta that ravine ya dug.

And you guys wouldn't even allow me a pirate with one little BC.

But yet, Saganami had to face pirates with a damn... What is that? A phucking task force? :o

And a powerful base of operations!!!

By the way. I still haven't read "Shad of Sag." Oh the shame as he hangs his head.

Hail, oh great munroburton, for truly delivering manna from Heaven. I had missed that post. And the relevant book.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Economics of Piracy
Post by Sigs   » Mon May 02, 2016 9:56 pm

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cthia wrote:Nice try, Sigs. But there ain't no way you can dig yourself outta that ravine ya dug.

And you guys wouldn't even allow me a pirate with one little BC.

But yet, Saganami had to face pirates with a damn... What is that? A phucking task force? :o

By the way. I still haven't read "Shad of Sag." Oh the shame as he hangs his head.

Hail, oh great munroburton, for truly delivering manna from Heaven. I had missed that post. And the relevant book.


So now your pirate has the backing of a nation or at least a major corporation? The situation might change a little if say Mesa offered a pirate a lot of money and ships to attack say Manticore's shipping but that is a far cry from a pirate assembling the resources on his or her own and committing the attack.

Mesa giving a pirate a semi-modern BC and the munitions to go with it not to mention money to hire a crew is ever so slightly different from a pirate who has to find and buy a BC, find and buy weapons and find and train a crew for a once in a millennium target that probably has a heavy escort.


And to add to that, even if the pirates were self funded how well did it work out for them in the Battle of Carson?

If I saw both sides accurately, the pirates had 2 Battlecruisers 1 Heavy Cruiser and 3 tin cans, while they were facing a single BC, how many of the 6 merchant ships did the pirates get and how many pirate ships survived?
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Re: The Economics of Piracy
Post by kzt   » Mon May 02, 2016 9:57 pm

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A fleet of mercenaries supplied by Mesa isn't exactly a pirate fleet.
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Re: The Economics of Piracy
Post by cthia   » Tue May 03, 2016 2:17 am

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Sigs wrote:
cthia wrote:Nice try, Sigs. But there ain't no way you can dig yourself outta that ravine ya dug.

And you guys wouldn't even allow me a pirate with one little BC.

But yet, Saganami had to face pirates with a damn... What is that? A phucking task force? :o

By the way. I still haven't read "Shad of Sag." Oh the shame as he hangs his head.

Hail, oh great munroburton, for truly delivering manna from Heaven. I had missed that post. And the relevant book.


So now your pirate has the backing of a nation or at least a major corporation? The situation might change a little if say Mesa offered a pirate a lot of money and ships to attack say Manticore's shipping but that is a far cry from a pirate assembling the resources on his or her own and committing the attack.

Mesa giving a pirate a semi-modern BC and the munitions to go with it not to mention money to hire a crew is ever so slightly different from a pirate who has to find and buy a BC, find and buy weapons and find and train a crew for a once in a millennium target that probably has a heavy escort.


And to add to that, even if the pirates were self funded how well did it work out for them in the Battle of Carson?

If I saw both sides accurately, the pirates had 2 Battlecruisers 1 Heavy Cruiser and 3 tin cans, while they were facing a single BC, how many of the 6 merchant ships did the pirates get and how many pirate ships survived?

You never paid much attention to my original post. I envisioned that a "hidden entity on high," supplied a select group of pirates with inside intel and funding. Same difference as textev's scenario. (A third party.)

You just didn't pay much attention to my concept before you drew and fired. I think you were facing the sun in the shootout.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Economics of Piracy
Post by cthia   » Tue May 03, 2016 2:37 am

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Sigs wrote:
cthia wrote:Nice try, Sigs. But there ain't no way you can dig yourself outta that ravine ya dug.

And you guys wouldn't even allow me a pirate with one little BC.

But yet, Saganami had to face pirates with a damn... What is that? A phucking task force? :o

By the way. I still haven't read "Shad of Sag." Oh the shame as he hangs his head.

Hail, oh great munroburton, for truly delivering manna from Heaven. I had missed that post. And the relevant book.


So now your pirate has the backing of a nation or at least a major corporation? The situation might change a little if say Mesa offered a pirate a lot of money and ships to attack say Manticore's shipping but that is a far cry from a pirate assembling the resources on his or her own and committing the attack.

Mesa giving a pirate a semi-modern BC and the munitions to go with it not to mention money to hire a crew is ever so slightly different from a pirate who has to find and buy a BC, find and buy weapons and find and train a crew for a once in a millennium target that probably has a heavy escort.


And to add to that, even if the pirates were self funded how well did it work out for them in the Battle of Carson?

If I saw both sides accurately, the pirates had 2 Battlecruisers 1 Heavy Cruiser and 3 tin cans, while they were facing a single BC, how many of the 6 merchant ships did the pirates get and how many pirate ships survived?

Yet, at Trautman's Star, it wasn't a cakewalk for the Manties either!
Commodore Saganami's forces engaged the enemy at Trautman's Star. A decisive fight ensued, in which thirteen pirate vessels were destroyed and another six taken as prizes.
However, the Manticoran's own casualties and damage were severe as well - HMS Defiant and HMS Triumph were destroyed, and Agamemnon, Mars, Swiftsure and Victorious suffered heavy damage.

In the end, the RMN gained full control of the system and destroyed all basing installations.

It also goes toward evidence that all pirates are not mindless simpletons that don't know their way around ships. There are pirates who can fight ships. In a Venn diagram, there are pirates who intersect with both pirate and mercenary, and vice versa.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Economics of Piracy
Post by cthia   » Tue May 03, 2016 2:42 am

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Bill Woods wrote:
cthia wrote: I'm talking about that very rare breed of Preston of the Chaseways. Who has acquired tactics and strategy from classified sources. He knows how to best use a BC in support of piracy. Even if just her sensor suite is the most utilized. I suspect, that the mettle of pirate that sails aboard a BC also has a couple of DDs. He's rolling in the dough. But you can best believe that this brand of pirate doesn't waste the talents of his BC. Especially when he's receiving detailed travel itinerary and predetermined payoff. Deploy drones about your attack area, that reports to your pre-positioned BC. I imagine that with a BC you can run down a few scatterers.

This Preston also kills to keep his secret. No survivors. He has his drones prepositioned telling him that there is no other ship in sensor range to see what is about to happen.



Also remember, this is a dashing Preston of the Chaseways. A cross between Blackbeard, Harrington and 007. He doesn't care about the operating cost of a BC. Hell, he doesn't care about the BC. The scores this pirate goes after can pay for a BC in petty celebration after-party money. How much can an aging BC cost, acquired for a single mission against this kind of score.
By the way, "Preston of the Spaceways" was a hero, not a bad guy.
Presumably inspired by Sergeant Preston of the Yukon.

This is Preston of the Chaseways. His evil doppelgänger of a twin.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Economics of Piracy
Post by munroburton   » Tue May 03, 2016 7:42 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
munroburton wrote:I'm surprised nobody has brought up Commodore Saganami yet. He demonstrated what happens to a pirate gang which got its hands on at least 4 BCs, 3 CAs, 18 CL & DDs, as well as basing facilities.

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Battle ... man's_Star
http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Carson

He was actually mentioned at least 4 times. But it's a big thread and easy to miss or forget things. :)
Certainly doesn't hurt to point him out again.


Okay, fair enough, I must have missed that!

I was trying to point out that Saganami had only seven units(all BCs, granted) and demolished a pirate empire of ~25 ships, most of "recent Solarian construction". And when Saganami's final report came in, Manticore sent a squadron of battleships to clean up Silesia.

That's the sort of force escalation pirates can't afford to trigger. We see it repeatedly. The nature of the business means the best bet is to retire after a few successful scores, even if you're not working for someone who's taking three-quarters of the loot in return for buying your frigate. Basically, grab a prize crew spot and cash out when you reach the fence.

It's possible in the abstract for someone to get a BC and hold it in reserve for some kind of big one-time job. However, the nature of the business again works against that person. See the Four Yahoos - despite being provided with four nearly new ex-SLN heavy cruisers and a repair ship for the express purpose of being on retainer for a specific operation, the pirates' handler still couldn't prevent them from hijacking run-of-the-mill targets and blowing the operation.
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