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Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?

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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:43 pm

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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:But I agree streak drives, even once declassified and released for civilian uses, aren't going to get put in many merchants. If they can't make the econimics the of the current military hyperdrives work they're unlikely to spend even more to go faster yet

Except privately available to corporate magnates like the Hauptmans and to Queens, Protectors and dictators. Especially Hauptman, who technically can build his own.
Sire, something like the Atlas class liner, which already carries classified military technology will probably be one of the early civilian ships cleared to use Streak drives - once any non-military ships are; but I wouldn't be at all surprised if that day was a decade or more from when Manticore puts their first operational streak drive in a warship. After all the Altas class already charge enough to justify military grade propulsion now, upgrading to Streak once allowed is just more of the same. (Quite likely permitted to do so even before news couriers or the few perishable goods fast freighters; because the security clearances their crew already have to have.)

But even within Hauptman lines the Atlas class is the exception, not the rule. The vast majority of his freighters stick with boring old civilian drives because that's how the economics work out. The extra costs aren't worth the shorter trips; not for the kind of non-perishable bulk goods usually getting hauled around.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Lord Skimper   » Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:59 pm

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kzt wrote:
cthia wrote: Especially Hauptman, who technically can build his own.

Not really. His shipyards all blowed up, his factories all blowed up, and his merchant fleet owes trillions in non-delivery fees to pretty much every industrialized system in the galaxy. But we were just talking about how the economics of the Honorverse doesn't work, so go on.


Civilian Yards were not destroyed.

After the war the SD fleet either is reconfigured for Armoured Transport in pod sized cargo delivery. Or mothballed until needed again. The home fleet Pod system is rolled in a bit a redesigned for extended down time. Nikes start getting built. Fleet escorts and such. Rolands become escort Destroyers and Saganami C's Take over traditional Destroyer / cruiser Patrol duties. Every other ship class is scrapped. Save LAC and CLAC. Streamlined slim and mean.

Commercial Transports will be upgraded with Fast Freighter Military wedges. With a league of trading partners speed will matter more than cost efficiencies.

With Smaller crew requirements larger ships will be deployed to patrol duties. Woe be the pirate that tries to intimidate a Saganami C on patrol. Let alone a Nike.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by kzt   » Sun May 01, 2016 12:57 am

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Lord Skimper wrote:Civilian Yards were not destroyed.

EVERYTHING was blown up. EVERYTHING. And I mean EVERYTHING.

Here's David saying that.
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/281/0

The SKM should be somewhere between massive depression and total economic collapse, and be screwed for a generation in rebuilding their industrial base. However as David has no interest in economics or industrial infrastructural - and that isn't what the plot calls for - they are not.

But consider that the major economic drivers listed for the SKM were:

1 merchant shipping - the SEM withdrew from 90% of prosperous trading partners when they pulled out of the SL.

2 Manufacturing sales - factories all blowed up real good.

3 Financial center - they have gone to war with 95% of their financial partners.

4 The WHJ - they banned most of the people who used to use it, and those who still are allowed mostly don't - see reason 1.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by darrell   » Sun May 01, 2016 4:12 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Dauntless wrote:once they understand how there is no reason why a streak drive can't be fitted into a warship, the question will be given the size increase that has been speculated, what are you willing to give up to get that ability on your ship. could be that for the most part streak drives are used only on courier boats

except for odd ships like say the meat carriers that visit montanna and a few similar places I don't see shipping lines paying the extra cost. There is no physical reason that freighters are slow, that is an economic decision as faster ships need better and more expensive parts but in most cases the extra cost would not reap a significantly higher profit to make it worth while.

Yep, Mesa put them in courier boats because, at the moment, they need speedy information transfer. But there's no reason they can't be put into warships now, and for all we know the Sharks used to carry out Oyster Bay already had streak drives. Finding room for a double sized hypergenerator in a big warship isn't really a problem. (Retrofitting one into an existing heavy warship,will take some non-trivial yard time because you'll have to cut through the (presumably armored) bulkheads of the correct hypergenerator room the enlarge it, plus find spots to relocate any and all displaced equipment to. But still well within the kind of serious refit a major naval yard fairly routinely does multiple times during a warship's service life.

But I agree streak drives, even once declassified and released for civilian uses, aren't going to get put in many merchants. If they can't make the econimics the of the current military hyperdrives work they're unlikely to spend even more to go faster yet. The only real advance I might see for freighters is if the work done to break the [edit: Iota] wall has trickle down effects that let you build a civilian generator, with the same TCO as today's Delta bands cable ones, that can reach the Eta bands. Basically if they get a band or two higher "for free" with a new civilian generator then new freighters will just start coming with that.

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quote="A Rising Thunder" --- “Oh, it gets better, Father,” Benjamin said harshly. “I don’t know how much information McBryde actually handed Zilwicki and Cachat, or how much substantiation they’ve got for it, but they got one hell of a lot more than we’d want them to have! They’re talking about virus-based nanotech assassinations, the streak drive, and the spider drive, and they’re naming names about something called ‘the Mesan Alignment.’ In fact, they’re busy telling the Manty Parliament—and, I’m sure, the Havenite Congress and all the rest of the fucking galaxy!—all about the Mesan plan to conquer the known universe.

The fact that the streak drive exists and mesa has it has been declassified, along with the spider drive. From what I understand simoens was theoretical, and it would take several months design work before the GA will have a working streak drive. I doubt that they could recreate the spider drive, since apparently simoens didn't work on it.

Quote: Mission of Honor: "The “private yacht” was about the size of most navies’ battlecruisers, and almost as heavily armed. Which didn’t prevent it from being one of the most luxuriously appointed vessels in the galaxy . . . as well as one of the fastest. It had made the passage from the Mesa System forty percent more rapidly than anyone else’s ship could have managed it."

So yes, the alignment has put the streak drive on BC sized ship, I can see no reason that they couldn't put it on SD's as well.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Kytheros   » Sun May 01, 2016 8:08 am

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darrell wrote:[quote="Jonathan_S
Yep, Mesa put them in courier boats because, at the moment, they need speedy information transfer. But there's no reason they can't be put into warships now, and for all we know the Sharks used to carry out Oyster Bay already had streak drives. Finding room for a double sized hypergenerator in a big warship isn't really a problem. (Retrofitting one into an existing heavy warship,will take some non-trivial yard time because you'll have to cut through the (presumably armored) bulkheads of the correct hypergenerator room the enlarge it, plus find spots to relocate any and all displaced equipment to. But still well within the kind of serious refit a major naval yard fairly routinely does multiple times during a warship's service life.

But I agree streak drives, even once declassified and released for civilian uses, aren't going to get put in many merchants. If they can't make the econimics the of the current military hyperdrives work they're unlikely to spend even more to go faster yet. The only real advance I might see for freighters is if the work done to break the [edit: Iota] wall has trickle down effects that let you build a civilian generator, with the same TCO as today's Delta bands cable ones, that can reach the Eta bands. Basically if they get a band or two higher "for free" with a new civilian generator then new freighters will just start coming with that.

******************
quote="A Rising Thunder" --- “Oh, it gets better, Father,” Benjamin said harshly. “I don’t know how much information McBryde actually handed Zilwicki and Cachat, or how much substantiation they’ve got for it, but they got one hell of a lot more than we’d want them to have! They’re talking about virus-based nanotech assassinations, the streak drive, and the spider drive, and they’re naming names about something called ‘the Mesan Alignment.’ In fact, they’re busy telling the Manty Parliament—and, I’m sure, the Havenite Congress and all the rest of the fucking galaxy!—all about the Mesan plan to conquer the known universe.

The fact that the streak drive exists and mesa has it has been declassified, along with the spider drive. From what I understand simoens was theoretical, and it would take several months design work before the GA will have a working streak drive. I doubt that they could recreate the spider drive, since apparently simoens didn't work on it.

Quote: Mission of Honor: "The “private yacht” was about the size of most navies’ battlecruisers, and almost as heavily armed. Which didn’t prevent it from being one of the most luxuriously appointed vessels in the galaxy . . . as well as one of the fastest. It had made the passage from the Mesa System forty percent more rapidly than anyone else’s ship could have managed it."

So yes, the alignment has put the streak drive on BC sized ship, I can see no reason that they couldn't put it on SD's as well.[/quote]
I believe what Jonathan_S meant by declassifying the streak drive was not its existence, but rather, declassification of how it works, how to make and maintain one. That's probably going to be considered and stay a military secret for as long as both Manticore and the MAlign can keep it that way.

Not unlike the fact that Manticore has FTL communications, better inertial compensators, and MDMs. Sure, they're known to exist, but the details aren't public knowledge.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by SharkHunter   » Sun May 01, 2016 8:34 am

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--snipping--
for all we know the Sharks used to carry out Oyster Bay already had streak drives.

Nope. The Spider drive is a completely different propulsive system; there's not even the slightest tidbit that indicates otherwise.

Where I would expect the "streak drive" style technologies to be implemented might be at the "Roland DD" size level. The Roland's are already about the fastest warship available sub-hyper. We're told the MAlgn hyper generators were much larger, but given adding GA level miniaturization, shielding, Grayson- style inertial compensators, etc. would likely reduce the weight/size requirements commensurately. This would allow the fleet's "eyes and ears" to distant points much more quickly might be worth the strategic advantage that speed would allow.

Granted, this is probably not a Roland when all is said and done, probably our notional CL- weight ship that is also up-armored and up-armed to the -G DDM's. In pairs, two "Avalon-C" light cruisers with the uprated hyper generator, and pod racks with power cords would be a formidable scouting and force projection tool, don't you think?
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun May 01, 2016 9:17 am

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SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--
for all we know the Sharks used to carry out Oyster Bay already had streak drives.

Nope. The Spider drive is a completely different propulsive system; there's not even the slightest tidbit that indicates otherwise.
There's nothing I can recall that says anything about the hyper generator mounted on the Sharks. No tidbits that it is a Streak, no tidbit that it isn't. Which is why as said "for all we know"; because we know nothing either way. (But probably should have inserted the technically redundant "may" before the "already" just to make it crystal clear I was speculating)

My point was that they had plenty of room to mount them, and if the streak generators were available when the Sharks where designed there doesn't seem to be any real reason to limit their strategic speed by putting in a old style non-streak generator.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by munroburton   » Sun May 01, 2016 9:57 am

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SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--
for all we know the Sharks used to carry out Oyster Bay already had streak drives.

Nope. The Spider drive is a completely different propulsive system; there's not even the slightest tidbit that indicates otherwise.


The Mesans developed both drives, ffs. Why wouldn't they put a streak generator on everything new they build?

Especially as their courier boats are already packing streak drives without noticeable external changes. If they can do that, then their Ghost-class scout frigates have them. And if the Ghosts have them, then the Sharks and Leonards almost certainly do.

The only thing I can think of is a kind of bureaucratic oversight whereby the Sharks, intended as training ships, weren't given a more expensive streak generator. But if that was the case, why wouldn't they have omitted the generator entirely?
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by cthia   » Sun May 01, 2016 2:36 pm

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That's when the honeymoon is over between Haven and Manticore and the bride and groom has a chance to actually feel each other out and see if matrimony was the right move. It is when the bride and groom has to face each other in day to day life. When Haven still has to figure out how to feed its many people.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Sigs   » Sun May 01, 2016 4:20 pm

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cthia wrote:That's when the honeymoon is over between Haven and Manticore and the bride and groom has a chance to actually feel each other out and see if matrimony was the right move. It is when the bride and groom has to face each other in day to day life. When Haven still has to figure out how to feed its many people.



They will feed their people the same way nations have been doing for a long time, sell their products to those who cannot yet build the merchandize in question. There might be hundreds or thousands of protectorates that will be technologically behind and will be starving for what Haven, Manticore, Grayson and Andermani can produce and sell. Also they can start selling to the nations that emerge from the ashes of the League and the new markets that Manticore and Grayson represent.

I would say that barring any unfortunate incident with their industry, Haven should have nowhere but up to go. Same goes for both Manticore and Grayson, when your industry is gutted as is the case for Manticore and Grayson there is nowhere to go but up.
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