Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?

pnakasone wrote:

Sigs wrote:What are the chances that the at least a good chunk of the core systems will survive and thrive post league? They have the industrial means to start building up significant defences if they start early enough by the time the League starts to completely fracture they can have at least a foundation to build war ships. And there is likely the chance that the collapse of the league will happen before the SLN is completely wiped out which means that many core systems may take portions of the remaining active forces and the manpower associated with those ships and/or grab ships from the reserve and man from local resources. An obsolete SD manned by inexperienced and poorly trained crew is still better than nothing considering there is likely nothing better out there in the immediate collapse.

The current SLN and reserve ships might be the stop gap measure to ensure at least some core and shell systems remain stable and it might even result in multi system nations to ensure mutual protection.

How many actually have SDFs and the ability to maintain them with out external help ? How many have shipyards to build new ships if they do not have them?

I think most of the core worlds have the ability to build shipyards, for those who see the writing on the wall they can create a crash program and have Destroyers, Cruisers and BC's within 3-5 years of starting. Throw in SD's 1-3 years after and you have the beginnings of a decent Fleet.


As for trained manpower? A crash training program can get you at least a small core of semi-trained military personnel. After all if almost everyone else is in the same boat semi-trained should suffice for at least the immediate need, plus unless the MA and GA manage to kill every single SLN member the survivors would gravitate back home, with or without their ships. Some core worlds with a tradition in the military might fair better than others when the SLN starts coming apart and the once who do not will either have to look into making alliances with those who faired better, quickly building up their military or decent into chaos.

There is also the reserve, and that should be good enough for most unless they are going to try and launch an attack against the GA, the MA or one of their better armed neighbours.

SharkHunter wrote:

The E wrote:Small nitpicks: All the Laocoon II targets are economically exploited; that implies that they're extensively documented. Secondly, wormholes aren't found by surveying other wormholes. We know that the science behind them allows for their presence to be predicted based on simple system scans, the hard part (as explained in War of Honor) isn't so much figuring out that a system has a junction or wormhole exit, it's actually localizing where the entry point is and how to go through it.

Counter nit? or whatever we'd call it... The reason I mentioned "exploring the captured wormholes" is as follows: in the process of finding the Lynx Terminus, I think Manticore's scientists and researchers advanced the "state of the art", so they might find be in the best position to find and or map additional wormhole junctions and terminii. Plus there are already known wormholes that the RMN does not know have a clear picture as to what is on the other side. They are not going to simply turn those back over to "prior management" without finding out. Thoughts?

On the one hand, yes WoH credits the improvements in Warshawskies sensitivity over the previous 10-15 T-years for being able to nail down the observational data necessary to verify the existence of the 7th terminus (much less localize and plot the necessary approach vectors)

On the other hand the theoretical math describing the Junction had long shown the possibility of additional termini there. It's my assumption that it was the unprecedented size and 'strength' of the Junction that made each additional terminus harder and harder to confirm and plot.

But none of the other wormholes are anywhere in the same class as it (well there's one unnamed 5 additional termini Junction), so I'd be shocked if there were unknown termini from any of the smaller Junctions, or single bridges, that Manticore had temporarily grabbed.


After all Checkov's gun for the Lynx terminus was hung on the wall as far back as chapter 4 of On Basilisk Station. But having Manticore find additional termini on the other wormholes, with no foreshadowing smacks a bit too much of deus ex machina.

SharkHunter wrote:Agreement that for some time, Manticore will be consolidating and protecting -- so they don't get Bolthole-d by an SL or MAlign successor state/star group, or the Verge/breakaway systems from Operation Janus don't get jumped by power hungry pirate warlord/piratical types.

Manticore shouldn't have any worries once peace comes around because right now manpower wise it is stretched pretty tight but once they start fully integrating the new territories and new populations in to their system they should be able to recruit from those new systems and have the time to train them to a standard that the RMN currently enjoys. The RMN is in a unique place where postwar they can actually grow their fleet or at least keep it steady once their fleet grows during the war.

Daryl wrote:I've always felt that Manticore civilian life in the middle of a to the death struggle more resembled the USA in WW2 than the UK in WW2. This just didn't gel in that Manticore like the UK was fighting for its very existance, not from outrage from a treacherous attack that didn't really threaten the country as a whole.
There is no rationing of food and clothing, no donating the equivalent of aluminium cooking pots to make the equivalent of Spitfires. A relatively small percentage of the population in uniform.

Though I always felt the "Manticore never looked like they were really at war" argument fell a bit flat because ...
* Manticore was never remotely short of raw materials. They had three habitable planets to house less than half the population of present-day Earth, plus all the resources of both components of the Manticore Binary System and all the Junction terminus systems that were not claimed by someone else.
* Haven had absolutely no way to prevent trade between Manticore and their single largest trade partner (Beowulf) or anyone beyond them through to the deep core of the League. Trade through Trevor's Star to the area around Haven was impacted by the war, and they attacked Basilisk a couple of times, but that was only two of six termini.
* Manticore had a much, much higher percentage of their population in uniform than Haven (which had at least twenty times the population of the first war era Star Kingdom, and but didn't have more than five times as many naval personnel -- I think the ratio was even more lopsided than this, but I'm being conservative here) or anyone else involved in the Havenite wars except Grayson). The economics of war in the Honorverse are really, really different from the real world.

Sigs wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Agreement that for some time, Manticore will be consolidating and protecting -- so they don't get Bolthole-d by an SL or MAlign successor state/star group, or the Verge/breakaway systems from Operation Janus don't get jumped by power hungry pirate warlord/piratical types.

Manticore shouldn't have any worries once peace comes around because right now manpower wise it is stretched pretty tight but once they start fully integrating the new territories and new populations in to their system they should be able to recruit from those new systems and have the time to train them to a standard that the RMN currently enjoys. The RMN is in a unique place where postwar they can actually grow their fleet or at least keep it steady once their fleet grows during the war.

I suspect that you may be underestimating the amount of training that it will take to bring someone up to manticoran standards. To give you an example, in high school my chemistry teacher was 75 years old. He said that we learned more in 1 year of high school chemistry then he learned in 4 years of college chemistry. That is how far the knowledge base had increased.

For some of the worlds, (rembrant?) the average citizen will need only a few years worth of education to bring them up to manticoran standard.

example: the equivalent of getting a 2 year college degree part time.

For other worlds, (dresden?) the average citizen will need to go through the full manticoran curriculum. That would be 10 years or more if everyone can go to school full time. Since that would not be possible, it would likely take 20-30 years for most of the population to be brought up to manticoran educational standard.

example: the equivalant of giving everyone in the 1,800's CE (6th grade, 1 room schoolhouses) and bringing their education level up to today's college graduate. (2,016 CE)

darrell wrote:[I suspect that you may be underestimating the amount of training that it will take to bring someone up to manticoran standards. To give you an example, in high school my chemistry teacher was 75 years old. He said that we learned more in 1 year of high school chemistry then he learned in 4 years of college chemistry. That is how far the knowledge base had increased.

It shouldn't be all that difficult to bring someone up to RMN standards. The RMN won't be all that interested in bringing recruits up to general Manticoran education, including liberal arts, when all a recruit needs is a narrow range of theory and practice to fill a RMN specialty niche.

A course of liberal arts and STEM subjects can be offered as continuing education after a recruit is brought up to RMN standards in a specialty.

Weird Harold wrote:

darrell wrote:[I suspect that you may be underestimating the amount of training that it will take to bring someone up to manticoran standards. To give you an example, in high school my chemistry teacher was 75 years old. He said that we learned more in 1 year of high school chemistry then he learned in 4 years of college chemistry. That is how far the knowledge base had increased.

It shouldn't be all that difficult to bring someone up to RMN standards. The RMN won't be all that interested in bringing recruits up to general Manticoran education, including liberal arts, when all a recruit needs is a narrow range of theory and practice to fill a RMN specialty niche.

A course of liberal arts and STEM subjects can be offered as continuing education after a recruit is brought up to RMN standards in a specialty.

***************

Storm from the Shadows wrote:"That's the Admiralty's thinking, Sir," Michelle agreed. "It won't be the same as running them all through basic training back home, but what they have in mind is more of an orientation mission. Each LAC detachment will have its own simulators for training, and running local personnel through them will give our people a chance to evaluate their general skill levels and basic competence, which aren't necessarily the same thing. Ultimately, BuPers is going to have to set up whatever remedial education is necessary in-house, since both the Admiralty and the PM have already made it clear that there are going to be Talbotters in the RMN and that they are not going to get stuck with some kind of second-class status. That means bringing their basic educational levels up to Manticoran standards, not trying to do some sort of rote training or 'enough to get by' training like the old Peep Navy used with its conscripts. That's going to require a lot out of them in terms of extra classroom studies, at least until we get the general education system out here up to Manticoran standards, but there's no way to avoid that, and I think the people who actually want to transfer to naval service will be willing to make the effort. In fact, that's probably going to be one of those Darwinian filters that help us recruit the cream of the crop.

You are mis-informed. the SEM is wanting to bring the GENERAL education level up to manticore standards.


Underline is my emphisis.
That means bringing their basic educational levels up to Manticoran standards,
and
general education system out here up to Manticoran standards,

darrell wrote:

Sigs wrote:
Manticore shouldn't have any worries once peace comes around because right now manpower wise it is stretched pretty tight but once they start fully integrating the new territories and new populations in to their system they should be able to recruit from those new systems and have the time to train them to a standard that the RMN currently enjoys. The RMN is in a unique place where postwar they can actually grow their fleet or at least keep it steady once their fleet grows during the war.

I suspect that you may be underestimating the amount of training that it will take to bring someone up to manticoran standards. To give you an example, in high school my chemistry teacher was 75 years old. He said that we learned more in 1 year of high school chemistry then he learned in 4 years of college chemistry. That is how far the knowledge base had increased.

For some of the worlds, (rembrant?) the average citizen will need only a few years worth of education to bring them up to manticoran standard.

example: the equivalent of getting a 2 year college degree part time.

For other worlds, (dresden?) the average citizen will need to go through the full manticoran curriculum. That would be 10 years or more if everyone can go to school full time. Since that would not be possible, it would likely take 20-30 years for most of the population to be brought up to manticoran educational standard.

example: the equivalant of giving everyone in the 1,800's CE (6th grade, 1 room schoolhouses) and bringing their education level up to today's college graduate. (2,016 CE)

But also you have to consider that probably 70+% of the population of Talbott is without prolong, it doesn't sound nice but the bulk of those people have anywhere from 10-60 years of work in front of them and then the prolong generations will take over. The SEM should try to improve the lives of those without prolong and give them the chance to be productive but the bulk of the increase in standards should be in the form of fixing the education system so that those with prolong going through the system can in fact become productive citizens and there should be a crash course for those without prolong aimed at bringing them to an acceptable level in general and aim a more specialist knowledge in their field.


Once war is over the RMN would be able to take those from Silesia and Talbott who might not be at the education level it expects and spend time and money to bring them up, time and money it would have because it will not be at war.


Initially the goal is to fix the education system so that those who are in the system or about to enter the system can advance at an equal level as Manticore without needing upgrades later on and those with prolong and recently out of the education system or on their last couple of years should be given specialized courses to bring them to Manticore's educated standards.

This will not be easy or quick, but in peacetime the military has a role to play as well, they can recruit a million or two from Silesia and Talbott and give them the education to get them to Manticore's Standards, and only once they have met those standards do they begin their actual job training.

There are nations currently that face a similar problem, they have conscription but a large % of the conscripts arte illiterate or semi-literate which is a bit of a problem when they are supposed to operate complex pieces of equipment even at the lowest level so those nations bring the average education level up before teaching. It is time consuming and expensive but worth it because even if they fail their military portion and end up back home they are now educated to the national standard. It is expensive and time consuming but also necessary when there is a disparity in the education standards of a nation.


And also didn't Manticore deal with a similar if not lesser degree of a problem with Grayson?

Another point to consider in education standards for a specialty is that in the RMN it still takes time to train recruits, even those starting with all the advantages of the Manticoran education system:

Honor Among Enemies, Chapter 8 wrote:Electronics Technician First-Class Aubrey Wanderman was almost as young as prolong made him look. He was brown-haired and slim, with the wiry, half-finished look of his youth, and he'd dropped out of Mannheim University's physics program half-way through his freshman form to enlist. His engineer father had opposed the decision, but he'd been unable to change Aubrey's mind. And though James Wanderman still bemoaned his son's "excessive burst of patriotic fervor," Aubrey knew he'd developed a hidden pride in him. And, he thought sardonically, not even his father could complain about the schooling the Navy had subjected him to. Any major university would grant him a minimum of three years' credit for the intensive courses, and the fact that he'd completed them with a 3.93 rating explained the first-class stripe on his sleeve.
But gratifying as his rate was, he'd taken the better part of two years to earn it. He knew a modern navy needed trained personnel, not unskilled cannon fodder, yet acquiring that training seemed to have taken forever, and he'd felt vaguely guilty as combat reports from Nightingale and Trevor's Star filtered back to Manticore. He'd been looking forward to shipboard duty—not without fear, for he didn't consider himself a particularly brave person, but with a sort of frightened eagerness—and he'd actually been slated for assignment to a ship of the wall. He knew he had, for Chief Garner had let him have a peek at the initial paperwork.

Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

Sigs wrote:I think most of the core worlds have the ability to build shipyards, for those who see the writing on the wall they can create a crash program and have Destroyers, Cruisers and BC's within 3-5 years of starting. Throw in SD's 1-3 years after and you have the beginnings of a decent Fleet.

As for trained manpower? A crash training program can get you at least a small core of semi-trained military personnel. After all if almost everyone else is in the same boat semi-trained should suffice for at least the immediate need, plus unless the MA and GA manage to kill every single SLN member the survivors would gravitate back home, with or without their ships. Some core worlds with a tradition in the military might fair better than others when the SLN starts coming apart and the once who do not will either have to look into making alliances with those who faired better, quickly building up their military or decent into chaos.

There is also the reserve, and that should be good enough for most unless they are going to try and launch an attack against the GA, the MA or one of their better armed neighbours.

Freighters plus missiles and electronics gets you minimally survivable warships carrying big honking missiles. Everyone agreed in the text that bolting together 3 capital ship missiles would give you a 3 stage missile, it would just be outrageously long and big. If you have lots of space on you ships and no other option to fight people with longer ranged missiles then I think you'll be bolting missiles together.