Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?

I've always felt that Manticore civilian life in the middle of a to the death struggle more resembled the USA in WW2 than the UK in WW2. This just didn't gel in that Manticore like the UK was fighting for its very existance, not from outrage from a treacherous attack that didn't really threaten the country as a whole.
There is no rationing of food and clothing, no donating the equivalent of aluminium cooking pots to make the equivalent of Spitfires. A relatively small percentage of the population in uniform.
After WW2 the UK struggled for years to rebuild a shattered economy, while the new technology and industries enabled the USA to rebound more quickly.
From this I would expect that Manticore will rebound quickly economically. Even the loss of the shipyards has a silver lining as they will be rebuilt under wartime priority using new technology.

The SL collapse is going to keep things unstable for decades. Think the collapse of the Roman empire combined with the Cold War is likely what will occur. I do not see the GA really cutting back on its military majorly for a quite while.

What are the chances that the at least a good chunk of the core systems will survive and thrive post league? They have the industrial means to start building up significant defences if they start early enough by the time the League starts to completely fracture they can have at least a foundation to build war ships. And there is likely the chance that the collapse of the league will happen before the SLN is completely wiped out which means that many core systems may take portions of the remaining active forces and the manpower associated with those ships and/or grab ships from the reserve and man from local resources. An obsolete SD manned by inexperienced and poorly trained crew is still better than nothing considering there is likely nothing better out there in the immediate collapse.

The current SLN and reserve ships might be the stop gap measure to ensure at least some core and shell systems remain stable and it might even result in multi system nations to ensure mutual protection.

Sigs wrote:What are the chances that the at least a good chunk of the core systems will survive and thrive post league? They have the industrial means to start building up significant defences if they start early enough by the time the League starts to completely fracture they can have at least a foundation to build war ships. And there is likely the chance that the collapse of the league will happen before the SLN is completely wiped out which means that many core systems may take portions of the remaining active forces and the manpower associated with those ships and/or grab ships from the reserve and man from local resources. An obsolete SD manned by inexperienced and poorly trained crew is still better than nothing considering there is likely nothing better out there in the immediate collapse.

The current SLN and reserve ships might be the stop gap measure to ensure at least some core and shell systems remain stable and it might even result in multi system nations to ensure mutual protection.

How many actually have SDFs and the ability to maintain them with out external help ? How many have shipyards to build new ships if they do not have them?

Daryl wrote:and clothing, no donating the equivalent of aluminium cooking pots to make the equivalent of Spitfires. A relatively small percentage of the population in uniform.
After WW2 the UK struggled for years to rebuild a shattered economy, while the new technology and industries enabled the USA to rebound more quickly.
From this I would expect that Manticore will rebound quickly economically. Even the loss of the shipyards has a silver lining as they will be rebuilt under wartime priority using new technology.

Britain is actually a poor example.

No one would accept Brit promissory notes as they had screwed the world over post WWI. So everyone demanded Gold.

Britain collapsed because what most people do not realize is that the USA forced the British Empire to open their closed mercantile system to their colonies to free trade enabling Britain to get the Lend Lease bill goods as they were BROKE. That and Britain also placed their gold to Stirling marker too high to begin with during the war years due to hubris. IF they had placed it at 3 like the USA said instead of 4, it would have been a much smaller blow. Note, Britain post war were forced to dip to 3 and even 2.5 post war. USA's wages were lower than Britain's. On top of that USA had fewer labor boards and union thugs that would not allow businesses to switch products. And the USA had more advanced assembly line production due to said labor laws. Britain effectively stopped producing war material after 44' except in certain areas enabling it to restart its economy instead of complete collapse.

Effectively Canada, Australia started trading near 100% with the USA instead of Britain. On top of this the gigantic Egypt was a $$$ sinkhole and India was in open rebellion due to ongoing starvation. On top of that Germany post war had the industry and cheap labor to undercut expensive British goods, effectively ending the British empire. By 1967, the British Empire was completely gone.

The British Merchant marine was also effectively destroyed. The WWII enormous build of Liberty ships in the USA as Britain did not have the materials nor the manpower to build them also finished off the collapse of their shipping industry. Hint, this should also happen to Manticore via Haven/Grayson. Post war, effectively there were 2000 free ships to be had and several governments, namely the folks from the USA, Greeks, Spanish Danes, etc purchased them further killing off the British Merchant Marine.

Anyways, if you want to read more in depth on why the Brit empire fell, it is nearly entirely due to $$$ and racism. Shocker, empires rise and fall on $$$.

PS. The aluminum/metals recycle drive was complete baloney during the war, they knew it at the time, but did it for PR reasons, but the myth has gone onwards even though nearly everything collected was never even smelted and that which was smelted amounted to a drop in the ocean of steel, aluminum required.

Agreement that for some time, Manticore will be consolidating and protecting -- so they don't get Bolthole-d by an SL or MAlign successor state/star group, or the Verge/breakaway systems from Operation Janus don't get jumped by power hungry pirate warlord/piratical types.

Besides that? Exploration, I think. In their shoes, I'd be building many more ships like the Harvest Joy, and going through all the Laccoon II captured wormholes that haven't been well documented and looking for more nodal points on that network. You know they won't be cutting cushy deals with anti-sentient rights governments, and the expansion of the network as trading partners is probably the most valuable economic recovery tool available.

In fact, I'm hoping that there is a small amount of room to "play" in a follow on "exploring the Honorverse" galaxy as an author, not with the mainline plot or characters, but say a hundred years later. May not happen but it would be fun.

SharkHunter wrote:Besides that? Exploration, I think. In their shoes, I'd be building many more ships like the Harvest Joy, and going through all the Laccoon II captured wormholes that haven't been well documented and looking for more nodal points on that network. You know they won't be cutting cushy deals with anti-sentient rights governments, and the expansion of the network as trading partners is probably the most valuable economic recovery tool available.

Small nitpicks: All the Laocoon II targets are economically exploited; that implies that they're extensively documented. Secondly, wormholes aren't found by surveying other wormholes. We know that the science behind them allows for their presence to be predicted based on simple system scans, the hard part (as explained in War of Honor) isn't so much figuring out that a system has a junction or wormhole exit, it's actually localizing where the entry point is and how to go through it.

The Alignment wasnt to destroy the League so it can impliment it's social and biological control of humanity.

Breaking the Solarian League is intended to create chaos that lets the systems of the RF both gather in systems for "mutual protection" and insert the Alignment systems of values, morals, genetic "improvements" and overall control of humanity's future. Destroying Manticore and then Haven removes the military powers outside the League though it is intended as also a way to cut the SLN's size and ability at the same time. Remember, Haven was supposed to take out Manticore and sweep on to the Alderman Empire and THEN get engaged in fighting the League.

The destruction of the Solarian League is going to have to proceed at several levels. The most obvious is the getting rid of the competent SL Navy leadership along with destroying much of the warship inventory thought fighting somebody. The Alignment expected it to be initaly Haven in conflict with the League and then fragmenting the League political. They don't actualy care how althought they don't want any single piece or group of pieces (like the RF) other than their puppets in a position of strength. Having OFS sectors like Maya break off work just fine.
Killing off much of the SLN opens the way for people and systems to start expanding militarily and politically without the threat of the SLN as the enforcer of peace. Peace can be loosely denfined here as not having systems actally attacking and forcing others to submit to conquest. That you can still do the same thing though economics, political rules & regulations and various forms of intimidation don't count as "war", just "business".
Having broken the SLN in massive and/or widespread conflicts, the intent is for the political and bureacratic control of the League and it's frontiers is also to shatter as the control is lost. When the League can't enforce rules and regulations, collect fees, keep "civilized" systems and individual (civilized or not) from physicaly imposing thier will and control on other systems, the systems will have to find alternatives. That is what the RF is for. That is also why the League and it's frontiers is going to fracture and go though spasms of conquest, alliances, minor and major wars, as each system tries to claw it's way into enough power and control to maintain it's independence. If they have to beat other systems into submission to do it, so be it.
The Alignment ultimatly doesn't care except that it will overlay it's control and direct the advancement of humanity in it's own image of what humanity should be. Devistated planitary populations with crashed economic systems are just fine- actualy quite good- as it allows the Alignment to manage the rebuilding along it's own lines with everything from education to medical science to social programs by the RF providing "relief" and framing the rebuilding of the various societies along Alignment term.

How many of the Core systems that are members of the SL will survive as major powers, at least in the short term? Depends. There will be destruction, certainly. There will be lunatics who will just inflict kenetic energy strikes just because they can and as "punishment" and ongoing reminders of who is in charge. But in most cases- probably- once someone has taken the orbitals of a system, they will want to hold the habitable planets as functioning economic engines to support whatever little empire they are building. This is not capturing and pillaging and then burning a city before moving on to take more territory in sweeping wars of elimination. This is chess and taking productive resources you can control to fuel you growth if not just your own defense and power.

The E wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Besides that? Exploration, I think. In their shoes, I'd be building many more ships like the Harvest Joy, and going through all the Laccoon II captured wormholes that haven't been well documented and looking for more nodal points on that network. You know they won't be cutting cushy deals with anti-sentient rights governments, and the expansion of the network as trading partners is probably the most valuable economic recovery tool available.

Small nitpicks: All the Laocoon II targets are economically exploited; that implies that they're extensively documented. Secondly, wormholes aren't found by surveying other wormholes. We know that the science behind them allows for their presence to be predicted based on simple system scans, the hard part (as explained in War of Honor) isn't so much figuring out that a system has a junction or wormhole exit, it's actually localizing where the entry point is and how to go through it.

Counter nit? or whatever we'd call it... The reason I mentioned "exploring the captured wormholes" is as follows: in the process of finding the Lynx Terminus, I think Manticore's scientists and researchers advanced the "state of the art", so they might find be in the best position to find and or map additional wormhole junctions and terminii. Plus there are already known wormholes that the RMN does not know have a clear picture as to what is on the other side. They are not going to simply turn those back over to "prior management" without finding out. Thoughts?

Daryl wrote:I've always felt that Manticore civilian life in the middle of a to the death struggle more resembled the USA in WW2 than the UK in WW2. This just didn't gel in that Manticore like the UK was fighting for its very existance, not from outrage from a treacherous attack that didn't really threaten the country as a whole.
There is no rationing of food and clothing, no donating the equivalent of aluminium cooking pots to make the equivalent of Spitfires. A relatively small percentage of the population in uniform.
After WW2 the UK struggled for years to rebuild a shattered economy, while the new technology and industries enabled the USA to rebound more quickly.
From this I would expect that Manticore will rebound quickly economically. Even the loss of the shipyards has a silver lining as they will be rebuilt under wartime priority using new technology.

Readers actually interested in this are encouraged to read Corelli Barnett (keeper of the Churchill papers) and his Pride and Fall series. The UKs problems were in place in late Victorian times; everything else was dominos falling.