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DId they ever tell them....?

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DId they ever tell them....?
Post by Hutch   » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:44 am

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Sorry if the title is a bit cryptic, but it's the best I could do on a Monday morning.

I've been re-reading the entire 'mainline' series (about 2/3 through War of Honor) and there are several examples of events happening that the protaginist (in my two cases below, Honor) isn't aware of something important.

And I wonder if somewhere in the unrecorded history of the Honorverse, if she ever found out?

1. We know, from In Enemy Hands, that Lester Tourville and Shannon Foraker erased information that could have indicated Honor's escape, something Honor had no way of knowing. Did Lester (while a POW post-Battle of Manticore) ever drop that into the conversation with Honor? I rather think he didn't if for no other reason than to protect Shannon, since that might not have reflected well, even in the new RHN. But it might come up sometime...

2. In War of Honor, Anton Zilwicki tells the Countess of North Hollow/Elaine Kormadorski/unnamed ex-slave) that he knows she arranged the death of Paul Tankersley and threatens to tell Honor if she doesn't make the North Hollow files (and herself) disappear. I wonder if he ever told Honor what he had done, letting the woman who cold-bloodedly arranged Pavel Youngs' revenge go free. I suspect he did, being Anton, and that Honor was not amused by it, but did come to understand why he had done it.

Any others you might have? What conversations do you think could start out "I bet you didn't know this but..."
Last edited by Hutch on Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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Re: DId they ever tell them....?
Post by munroburton   » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:52 am

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1. I don't think so. That event remains between Lester and Shannon. Telling Honor about it would go against their personalities - I think they feel guilty enough about being unable to stop Ransom and StateSec that covering up the sensor trace only went part of the way to squaring their debts. Telling Honor would make her feel like she owed them.

2. Again, probably not. Telling Honor about Elaine's involvement whilst letting the latter walk away basically opens up business Honor believes is long finished and resolved.

There'd be one for Eloise and Honor about that time in Silesia. IIRC, People's Commissioner Pritchart didn't object to Caslet's independent operation.

I haven't read Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington in a while, but I'm not sure if she ever found out that Bachfisch was tipped off by Commandant Hartley about the whole Young enmity. If that came up, it would be during WoH.
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Re: DId they ever tell them....?
Post by Somtaaw   » Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:04 pm

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munroburton wrote:I haven't read Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington in a while, but I'm not sure if she ever found out that Bachfisch was tipped off by Commandant Hartley about the whole Young enmity. If that came up, it would be during WoH.


I think she'd already been tipped off, by Hamish, who also admitted that Courvosier had slipped to him that Honor was talented and had enemies already. And that her own actions had made Hamish feel no guilt over his promise to Raoul to at least watch out for her.

I need to reread OBS again I just finished it last week but I could have sworn that Hamish was talking with someone who had spoken to Hartley specifically about Honor (Webster I think it was), but Honor was a prime point and so was Hartley and Pavel Young too.
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Re: DId they ever tell them....?
Post by cthia   » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:26 pm

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munroburton wrote:1. I don't think so. That event remains between Lester and Shannon. Telling Honor about it would go against their personalities - I think they feel guilty enough about being unable to stop Ransom and StateSec that covering up the sensor trace only went part of the way to squaring their debts. Telling Honor would make her feel like she owed them.

2. Again, probably not. Telling Honor about Elaine's involvement whilst letting the latter walk away basically opens up business Honor believes is long finished and resolved.

There'd be one for Eloise and Honor about that time in Silesia. IIRC, People's Commissioner Pritchart didn't object to Caslet's independent operation.

I haven't read Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington in a while, but I'm not sure if she ever found out that Bachfisch was tipped off by Commandant Hartley about the whole Young enmity. If that came up, it would be during WoH.

I agree on both accounts... and that this is an excellent thought.

I have always felt however, that the time for Honor to find these things out would be in her old retirement age while playing bingo - a game in which her empathic sense couldn't allow her to cheat. And also in an indirect fashion, coming from neither Tourville or Shannon - lest approached directly by Honor.

I seem to remember that Elaine did something to help Honor's efforts with Young. I can't remember exactly what it was now, but I remember thinking that Honor would appreciate the gesture - though it was for selfish reasons that she did it. Or did Elaine's assistance have something to do with Honor's duel with Summervale?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: DId they ever tell them....?
Post by MaxxQ   » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:31 pm

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cthia wrote:I seem to remember that Elaine did something to help Honor's efforts with Young. I can't remember exactly what it was now, but I remember thinking that Honor would appreciate the gesture - though it was for selfish reasons that she did it. Or did Elaine's assistance have something to do with Honor's duel with Summervale?


She tipped off someone anonymously (name escapes me at the moment - admiral who lost his legs in a battle and showed up in a wheelchair while going through regen with his nurse), who then tipped off Ramirez, Scotty, McKeon, etc.
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Re: DId they ever tell them....?
Post by saber964   » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:38 pm

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MaxxQ wrote:
cthia wrote:I seem to remember that Elaine did something to help Honor's efforts with Young. I can't remember exactly what it was now, but I remember thinking that Honor would appreciate the gesture - though it was for selfish reasons that she did it. Or did Elaine's assistance have something to do with Honor's duel with Summervale?


She tipped off someone anonymously (name escapes me at the moment - admiral who lost his legs in a battle and showed up in a wheelchair while going through regen with his nurse), who then tipped off Ramirez, Scotty, McKeon, etc.



Elaine tipped off Capt(JG) Ernestine 'Ernie' Corell Admiral Sarnow's Chief of staff. While I don't think Honor wouldn't appreciative that Elaine dropped a dime on Summervale it would probably only go so far as making a first round kill shot instead of what Honor did to Summervale e.g. 4 gut shots and head shot.
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Re: DId they ever tell them....?
Post by Hutch   » Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:45 pm

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saber964 wrote: Elaine tipped off Capt(JG) Ernestine 'Ernie' Corell, Admiral Sarnow's Chief of staff. While I don't think Honor wouldn't appreciative that Elaine dropped a dime on Summervale it would probably only go so far as making a first round kill shot instead of what Honor did to Summervale e.g. 4 gut shots and head shot.


True enough. Probably Honor would be nicer than the Ballroom if they find/found her first...

One other. I suspect Honor and Tom Thiesman have compared notes and found that they opposed one another at Fourth Yeltsin, and mused that both of them could have met their deaths that day if Theisman had continued his attack...
***********************************************
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.

What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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Re: DId they ever tell them....?
Post by cthia   » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:41 pm

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Hutch wrote:
saber964 wrote: Elaine tipped off Capt(JG) Ernestine 'Ernie' Corell, Admiral Sarnow's Chief of staff. While I don't think Honor wouldn't appreciative that Elaine dropped a dime on Summervale it would probably only go so far as making a first round kill shot instead of what Honor did to Summervale e.g. 4 gut shots and head shot.


True enough. Probably Honor would be nicer than the Ballroom if they find/found her first...

One other. I suspect Honor and Tom Thiesman have compared notes and found that they opposed one another at Fourth Yeltsin, and mused that both of them could have met their deaths that day if Theisman had continued his attack...

Well, I don't know. Under the right circumstances, like if Elaine presented the info to Honor in the right light, such as while she's bringing her more juice - e.g., "Whilst hiding out on the run, I came about some unlikely information regarding a certain MAligney Hole. I hear your Star Empire may find this news... worthy of a pardon?" There's a thought, RFC can help to rehabilitate Elaine. :D

Because with all of her faults, I like Elaine. Chock it up to some version of the Stockholm Syndrome that manifests itself as such in novels. <shrugs>


I always wondered if Honor knew, that her armsmen knew, of her "controversial affair" with White Haven during the sensitive time she and White Haven were "cavorting" on eggshells. Or did they really allow her her pride and dignity and chance to play innocent? Like not telling her that her slip was always hanging after leaving White Haven's side. :oops:



Did Honor ever come to know how Emily's hired help loathed her? I got that impression that they secretly wished Honor would place herself in a cultivator in hopes of cultivating some common decency - the trollop. Have we had any words from the help since? It seems Honor, certainly with Nimitz around, would have known how they felt about her in short order.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: DId they ever tell them....?
Post by Somtaaw   » Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:59 pm

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cthia wrote:I always wondered if Honor knew, that her armsmen knew, of her "controversial affair" with White Haven during the sensitive time she and White Haven were "cavorting" on eggshells. Or did they really allow her her pride and dignity and chance to play innocent? Like not telling her that her slip was always hanging after leaving White Haven's side. :oops:

Did Honor ever come to know how Emily's hired help loathed her? I got that impression that they secretly wished Honor would place herself in a cultivator in hopes of cultivating some common decency - the trollop. Have we had any words from the help since? It seems Honor, certainly with Nimitz around, would have known how they felt about her in short order.



I think Honor knew that her armsmen knew that Honor had a relationship with Hamish. Andrew LaFollet was no fool, and he'd known Honor long enough to know that's something she would have done... and as was explained to Spencer Hawke:

At All Costs, Chapter Thirteen wrote:"There's no reason she ought to tell me about them," Hawke said, just a bit stiffly. "She's my Steadholder. If she wants me to know something, she'll tell me."
-snip-
"Spencer," he said, "Colonel LaFollet didn't handpick you for the Steadholder's personal detail because you're an idiot. You know -- or you damned well ought to know, by now -- that no primary ever tells his armsmen everything they need to know. And, frankly, the Steadholder's worse than most in that regard. She's better than she was, but, Tester -- the things she used to do without even mentioning them to us ahead of time!"
-snip-
"The thing you have to understand, Spencer, is that there's the Job, and then there's everything else. The Job is to see to it that that lady in there stays alive, period. No ifs, no ands, and no buts. We do whatever it takes -- whatever it takes -- to see to it that she does. And it's our privilege to do that, because there are steadholders, and there are steadholders, and I tell you frankly that one like her comes along maybe once or twice in a generation. If we're lucky. And, yes, although I'm not going to tell her, I'd do the Job anyway, because I love her.
-snip-
"And, of course, we spend most of the rest of our time keeping our big mouths shut about the things we have figured out. Especially the ones she didn't tell us about. You know, the things she knows that we know that she knows that we know but none of us ever discuss with her."

"Oh." Hawke frowned. "So you're saying I'm supposed to pry into her personal life?"

"We are her personal life," Mattingly said flatly. "We're as much her family as her mother and father, as Faith and James. Except that we're the expendable part of her family... and everyone knows and accepts that. Except her."


I snipped out the actions and irrelevant, only passingly related conversation. But it's a very clear case, that her armsman always knew everything, but because they both love her and respect her, they allowed Honor the illusion that they didn't know things. But she knows that they know that she knows that they know but nobody ever openly talked about the subject.
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Re: DId they ever tell them....?
Post by cthia   » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:57 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:
cthia wrote:I always wondered if Honor knew, that her armsmen knew, of her "controversial affair" with White Haven during the sensitive time she and White Haven were "cavorting" on eggshells. Or did they really allow her her pride and dignity and chance to play innocent? Like not telling her that her slip was always hanging after leaving White Haven's side. :oops:

Did Honor ever come to know how Emily's hired help loathed her? I got that impression that they secretly wished Honor would place herself in a cultivator in hopes of cultivating some common decency - the trollop. Have we had any words from the help since? It seems Honor, certainly with Nimitz around, would have known how they felt about her in short order.



I think Honor knew that her armsmen knew that Honor had a relationship with Hamish. Andrew LaFollet was no fool, and he'd known Honor long enough to know that's something she would have done... and as was explained to Spencer Hawke:

At All Costs, Chapter Thirteen wrote:"There's no reason she ought to tell me about them," Hawke said, just a bit stiffly. "She's my Steadholder. If she wants me to know something, she'll tell me."
-snip-
"Spencer," he said, "Colonel LaFollet didn't handpick you for the Steadholder's personal detail because you're an idiot. You know -- or you damned well ought to know, by now -- that no primary ever tells his armsmen everything they need to know. And, frankly, the Steadholder's worse than most in that regard. She's better than she was, but, Tester -- the things she used to do without even mentioning them to us ahead of time!"
-snip-
"The thing you have to understand, Spencer, is that there's the Job, and then there's everything else. The Job is to see to it that that lady in there stays alive, period. No ifs, no ands, and no buts. We do whatever it takes -- whatever it takes -- to see to it that she does. And it's our privilege to do that, because there are steadholders, and there are steadholders, and I tell you frankly that one like her comes along maybe once or twice in a generation. If we're lucky. And, yes, although I'm not going to tell her, I'd do the Job anyway, because I love her.
-snip-
"And, of course, we spend most of the rest of our time keeping our big mouths shut about the things we have figured out. Especially the ones she didn't tell us about. You know, the things she knows that we know that she knows that we know but none of us ever discuss with her."

"Oh." Hawke frowned. "So you're saying I'm supposed to pry into her personal life?"

"We are her personal life," Mattingly said flatly. "We're as much her family as her mother and father, as Faith and James. Except that we're the expendable part of her family... and everyone knows and accepts that. Except her."


I snipped out the actions and irrelevant, only passingly related conversation. But it's a very clear case, that her armsman always knew everything, but because they both love her and respect her, they allowed Honor the illusion that they didn't know things. But she knows that they know that she knows that they know but nobody ever openly talked about the subject.

Thanks for digging this out of the archives Somtaaw. I'd vaguely remembered something to that effect and its touching.

Moreover, even as an armsman, exactly how would a Grayson man approach their female Steadholder to discuss the affairs of her bedroom?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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