Scenario of War with the League

Relax wrote:

Sigs wrote:

If the SLN had a choice between more SD's or forts what do you think they would choose? They keep a reserve of 8,000 SD's and 2,300 in active commission as well as thousands of lighter ships. The League does not see a need to maintain defences because it is the biggest most powerful nation around and they know it. Forts are a defensive weapon by their very nature and do not have the prestige that SD's have and if I'm not mistaken most of the Fleet 2000 changes were predominately cosmetic in nature aka make them look cooler rather than more combat effective. This means that it would be more prestigious for them to have a few hundred more SD's than having forts on any but the most essential sites and even then those forts might be obsolete.

If we are talking about Haven, Manticore or Grayson it would be different because all 3 nations have 20 years worth of combat experience so they will go for forts when forts are called for, but the league has not fought a war in centuries and thus does not think like them.

According to your logic, the USA doesn't build Frigates, LCS's, or have programs for a cheap light fighter or a cheap submarine... A universal truth, POLITICIANS are always looking to increase THEIR slice of the pie they get to dole out in guanxi, etc. Same reason we are still building M1 Abrams tanks even though the Pentagon has not wanted to build any for the last 10+ years.

Do not look for logic and reason to rule in reality. This is a naive ideal. Rather look to Nepotism, power, and $$$ to rule in most cases.

The SLN does not worry about defence, if the choice is between SD's or forts, they will choose SD's not because SD's are more useful or efficient but because the SD's are more prestigious and in line with belief system of the SLN.

Sigs wrote:Then they lose, the GA sends out 500 SD's to all the important shipyards,

The League takes damage to a quarter of their systems; Manticore, Haven, Grayson, and possibly Erewhon lose their capitols and surrender. The 500 SDs next word from headquarters is orders to stand down and surrender to the nearest Solarian authorities.

What happens to the League after the GA surrenders is irrelevant, the GA will no longer exist as independent star nations/empires.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:Then they lose, the GA sends out 500 SD's to all the important shipyards,

The League takes damage to a quarter of their systems; Manticore, Haven, Grayson, and possibly Erewhon lose their capitols and surrender. The 500 SDs next word from headquarters is orders to stand down and surrender to the nearest Solarian authorities.

What happens to the League after the GA surrenders is irrelevant, the GA will no longer exist as independent star nations/empires.

And who is defending the League's Capital? The GA can get to Earth faster then the SLN can get o Manticore, Haven or Grayson and the SLN would have only one shot at only one of those targets as it has been mentioned that they have an inadequate fleet train. The SLN attack gets to its target and is met by the SLN CNO and the Leagues elected government and the mandarins to inform them that the League has surrendered... then what?

What the SLN can do, the GA can do faster due to the Beowulf Terminus.

Sigs wrote:And who is defending the League's Capital?

Battle Fleet's "Home Fleet."

I don't think we've ever gotten hard numbers on the Battle Fleet presence in the Sol system, but it is the headquarters and choicest assignment for anyone with influence. It is likely the most heavily defended system in the Universe.

It doesn't really matter who or what is defending Earth, going directly to an opponent's Capitol isn't Manticoran or Havenite policy "pre-Buttercup" and therefore not likely to be the policy of the GA.

munroburton wrote:
However, I believe only three or four RF members have them. Why? Because if suddenly 11 of the most powerful SDFs banded together and seceded on their own, crucially ignoring Beowulf's lead... Well, if I were ONI, I'd have those 11 on the top of my infiltration list!

Unfortunately, you would eventually learn that all of your infil team leads were Mesan Alphas, and most of their members were Alphas and Betas, with perhaps a few Gammas thrown in to do the grunt work.

Any "Normals" would be kept out of the loop and sent after distractions. Any who managed to find something useful would be "discovered" by local Counter-Intelligence.

Shiny!

Sigs wrote:The SLN does not worry about defence, if the choice is between SD's or forts, they will choose SD's not because SD's are more useful or efficient but because the SD's are more prestigious and in line with belief system of the SLN.

The USN does not worry about defense. The USA does. Why they have ICBM's and ICBM nuclear submarines. The SLN does not worry about defense. The SL does and why they will have forts.

Sigs wrote:The SLN does not worry about defence, if the choice is between SD's or forts, they will choose SD's not because SD's are more useful or efficient but because the SD's are more prestigious and in line with belief system of the SLN.

The SLN isn't responsible for the security of all of the SL's systems on a day to day basis. That job is handled by the SDFs; each system decides how much defense it needs. There are of course exceptions such as the Sol system and wherever the major SLN bases are.

But many systems, believing the SLN will be around to provide a counter-strike force, may decide to focus their SDFs on units that can't leave their system: LACs or forts. Anything else risks being commandeered in the event of a Gbaba or Bug attack.

Relax's point about forts being more firepower for X amount of currency is, pardon the pun, on the money. They can be twice the mass of SDs, minus hyper generator and interstellar bunkerage, with the same crew. And in peacetime, personnel costs are the highest demand upon a navy/SDF's budget.

A SDF which has built 24 Manticoran-style forts has the firepower of over 50 SDs and doesn't register on the list of top 25 or even 50 navies. Yet only the top five or ten stand any hopes of defeating it.

Even only one such fort is sufficent to assure your home system's security should an unreliable neighbour acquire one of those white elephant wallers. Does it less threatingly than acquiring one or two elephants of your own too.

Fox2! wrote:

munroburton wrote:
However, I believe only three or four RF members have them. Why? Because if suddenly 11 of the most powerful SDFs banded together and seceded on their own, crucially ignoring Beowulf's lead... Well, if I were ONI, I'd have those 11 on the top of my infiltration list!

Unfortunately, you would eventually learn that all of your infil team leads were Mesan Alphas, and most of their members were Alphas and Betas, with perhaps a few Gammas thrown in to do the grunt work.

Any "Normals" would be kept out of the loop and sent after distractions. Any who managed to find something useful would be "discovered" by local Counter-Intelligence.

Shiny!

ONI has treecats available. Wholesale counter-penetration on that scale that isn't going to happen!

Relax wrote:

Sigs wrote:The SLN does not worry about defence, if the choice is between SD's or forts, they will choose SD's not because SD's are more useful or efficient but because the SD's are more prestigious and in line with belief system of the SLN.

The USN does not worry about defense. The USA does. Why they have ICBM's and ICBM nuclear submarines. The SLN does not worry about defense. The SL does and why they will have forts.

In what part of the series does the SL worry about defence? They have 2300 SD's and 8000 SD's in reserve that is all the defence they need. The SL does not worry about defence because they are the big bad wolf that nobody would worry about, do you for a second think that the SLN worries about defence because for the last 300 to 400 years nobody has been able to even threaten them, they have enough problems justifying keeping 2300 SD's in commission to be diverting more resources to the unsexy part of the military, the fixed/semi-fixed fortifications. The League updates their ships to look good rather than be effective, what proof do you have that the League has forts?

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:And who is defending the League's Capital?

Battle Fleet's "Home Fleet."

I don't think we've ever gotten hard numbers on the Battle Fleet presence in the Sol system, but it is the headquarters and choicest assignment for anyone with influence. It is likely the most heavily defended system in the Universe.

It doesn't really matter who or what is defending Earth, going directly to an opponent's Capitol isn't Manticoran or Havenite policy "pre-Buttercup" and therefore not likely to be the policy of the GA.

So what is it? Are you going to send battle fleet as one overwhelming force to destroy the GA or are you going to keep it in the Capital to protect Earth? You can't have it both ways Keeping a large enough force to protect Earth means that the GA could destroy your Yards and the fleet you send to attack their important systems.

There is a finite number of ships, those 2,300 SD's can only go so far and when the 1,200 SD's of the GA can enter the heart of your industrial power and destroy or knock a bulk of that power out of the war and then go back and still meet your attack and defeat it because you kept a large portion as Home Fleet and you still pissed off all the other core worlds because you didn't provide any defence to anyone but Earth it's not going to end well for the SL. All the core systems would be pissed at the central government for abandoning them, the League would have pissed away their numerical advantage, lost their industrial power one way or another and whatever is left over once the majority of the shell and core worlds cede would be waiting to be conquered by the GA.

Weird Harold wrote:It doesn't really matter who or what is defending Earth, going directly to an opponent's Capitol isn't Manticoran or Havenite policy "pre-Buttercup" and therefore not likely to be the policy of the GA.

I'm sorry. I didn't really think about that. I know that both Manticore and Haven are utterly incapable of as nations to think outside the box. I mean it would NEVER in a million years occur to them to go after the League's capital even though they are much closer to the League's Capital than the League is to their Capitals.

The GA is made of morons, their strategies are written in stone and they cannot under any circumstance change them.