Medusa-C (The end of the SDP?)

kzt wrote:Really? Let me draw your attention to this quote from MoH:

"In effect, we've lost every ship under construction, the labor force which was building them, and the physical plant in which they were being built...

I'm well aware of the extent of Manticore's losses, which is why I agreed that there would NOT be rapid construction in the Manticore Binary system.

There was, however, NO IMPACT, on Bolthole and Haven's construction capacity is untouched. Which is why there is textev explicitly stating that Bolthole would build the basic hull and navigation systems and the ships would be brought to Beowulf for installation of Keyhole II.

Manticore would be providing the blueprints/tech data for the integration -- probably based, in part, on the integration of KHII into IAN SD(p)s but other than info from the R&D survivors of HMSS Weyland there is nothing required from the Manticore Binary system.

That is the explicitly stated plan. I doubt that the rumored disaster at Beowulf will materially affect the construction of the GA "Bolthole Special" SD(P)s. The rumored disaster is rumored to be around the time period of the Beowulf secession plebiscite so about a full year before the first of the Bolthole Specials arrives for fitting out.

Note the ships will be GA Ships, not solely Manticoran. But textev projections for new ships, post-Yawata Strike, are not based on just Manticore's ability to recover; They are, in fact, based on Manticore's inability to recover in the time frames discussed.

RFC may well throw a dozen simian spanners into the explicitly stated plans by giving either the SLN or MAlign a victory at Beowulf but that doesn't change the explicit information we have now.

As for "publishing" the specs for anything from Ghostrider, that cat has been out of the bag ever since the partition of Silesia and the alliance with the Anderman Empire that saw IAN SD(P)s fitted with KHII and Apollo missiles. That would include examples containing the absolute latest generation of FTL fire-control/comm and micro-fusion missile and RD power plants. Just what additional information might be loose on Beowulf that hasn't been out of Manticoran control for a year or two already?

kzt wrote:Really? Let me draw your attention to this quote from MoH:

"In effect, we've lost every ship under construction, the labor force which was building them, and the physical plant in which they were being built—and which was fabricating almost all the components the dispersed yards were assembling. That means that what we have in commission and working up at Trevor's Star now is all we're going to have for at least two T-years. For any capital ships, the delay will be more like four T-years. Minimum."

And I suspect that something very regrettable will happen to Beowulf in the near future. Worse, as Beowulf is going to be much more deeply penetrated than Manticore is (where the best they could do was plant an agent just as the goddamn foreign minister...), any tech given to Beowulf might as well be published on Mesa in the newspaper.

IIRC, nothing in that briefing said anything about expected volume. It could be one lead ship ready in 4 years and then many months before the batch production run starts spitting out new sister hulls.(Eg. Nike-class or Harrington-class)

I can understand Bolt Hole being able to shift over to producing RMN designs after a period of upgrade to segments of its industrial manufacturing to train people and to build/convert equipment (and production lines) to producing the Manticoraian tech products. They have gobs of military warship production capasity and would -or should- be able to make the change as new equipment mfg. and training comes on line and slips become available.

Beowulf is a different question. Even of Beowulf was producing it's own SDs and lighter ships (we don't see much about any of the lighter ships), they are not presented as having massive capacity to build warships. They also probably do have significant civilian industrial scale heavy manufacturing in orbital plants but they have to convert operations from Beowulf (and more likely SL level/style) civilian production to Manticore tech military hardware.

We keep being told how much better all this RMN mil-tech and equipment is and how much smaller the components are. We also are hammered with how much automation is incorporated into the RMN warships- which I have to think is also the case with the now destroyed manufacturing facilities that were producing it- and I wonder about the level of pre-existing RMN tech integrated into Beowulf industrial production. If they were (as we are being told) not including wholesale levels of RMN tech in their current modern fleet of SDs or other warships, how likely is it that the tech and specs are being used in CIVILIAN industrial production?

Sure, other than meeting existing contracts for production of export products and wanting to keep a steady if lower level of civilian products in production for local usebeing, it is likely that Beowulfian manufactures would be willing to divert a significant portion of civilian industrial production to make "stuff" for Manticore to replace it's manufacturing infrastructure and produce military grade hardware and equipment for building, repairing and rearming warships. And they would be looking to get paid for that- likely including the cost of converting exising production to the new tech levels and adding capasity.
Beowulf would have the advantage that they may already have a portion of it's workforce that has experience with some of this stuff and they would be getting the specs and background from Manticore rather than having to work out everything as they go but otherwise they have very much the same problem as the SL industries. They have to convert.

Brigade XO wrote:I can understand Bolt Hole being able to shift over to producing RMN designs after a period of upgrade to segments of its industrial manufacturing to train people and to build/convert equipment (and production lines) to producing the Manticoraian tech products. They have gobs of military warship production capasity and would -or should- be able to make the change as new equipment mfg. and training comes on line and slips become available.

It is not as absolutely clear as I recall, but...

A Rising Thunder
Chapter Twenty-eight wrote:The tectonic shift represented by the Grand Alliance’s unexpected formation had hugely reduced even the most optimistic Manticoran estimates of how long it was going to take to rebuild the Old Star Kingdom’s industrial muscle. Which wasn’t to say it was going to happen overnight, even now. The process was still going to take T-years, and everyone knew it.
That was why Beowulf was already establishing its first MDM production lines. It had no pod-laying superdreadnoughts of its own, but its basic technological capabilities required far less tweaking than Haven’s would to begin producing the mini-fusion plants and the miniaturized gravitic components required to build something like the Mark 23-E. So for the foreseeable future, Beowulf would be the primary missile supplier for the Grand Alliance. For that matter, if things worked out the way the planners were anticipating, in the next several T-months Beowulf would begin building Keyhole-Two platforms to be installed in purpose-built Havenite SD(P)s constructed in Bolthole and sailed to Manticore for final installation of the Beowulf-built components.

The plan, as I read it, is to build a Havenite design with Havenite hull, navigation, propulsion, life-support, etc. The only Manticoran tech required at Bolthole is going to be related to storage and deployment of Apollo/Flat-pack pods and mounting KHII systems. There won't be, initially, the automation and other manpower saving frills won't be included in the "Bolthole Specials." There will only be the minimum changes to an existing Havenite SD(P)design to make it KHII compatible -- much the same as making IAN SD(P)s Apollo capable required.

Weird Harold wrote:The plan, as I read it, is to build a Havenite design with Havenite hull, navigation, propulsion, life-support, etc. The only Manticoran tech required at Bolthole is going to be related to storage and deployment of Apollo/Flat-pack pods and mounting KHII systems. There won't be, initially, the automation and other manpower saving frills won't be included in the "Bolthole Specials." There will only be the minimum changes to an existing Havenite SD(P)design to make it KHII compatible -- much the same as making IAN SD(P)s Apollo capable required.

That's somewhat how I read it as well. Havenite SDPs were good enough to stand upto even the very latest Invictii, and since they're missile boats, and they'll be slinging Manticoran missiles, they don't have to be Manticoran designed SDP's to rampage through any hostile fleet.

And Manticore does have the experience now in modifying their Keyhole platforms to merge with somebody ELSE's tech, like you observed. So the Keyhole deuce is going to be alot faster modified, and it shouldn't take the Havenites, namely Foraker, long to work out their software patch for the change.


I figure that Foraker has their gen-3 SDP's on the drawing board still, so when Hemphill arrives, the two will get together and nibble on the design a bit to bring it closer/superior to Invictii, and that will become the new universal GA SDP.

Relax wrote:A BCL has 5000? or is it 6000 MK-16s.
BC'P had 330 Pods. Pods shrunk, so ~50% more pods now
BC'P now has roughly 500 pods.
500x14 = 7000 MK-16's....

So, which platform has the endurance and alpha strike capability now?

That is not necessarily true. The BC (P) WOULD have superior offensive capacity but it would still be as vulnerable as before as it does not have the defensive qualities. In essence it is like the Royal Navy's Invincible, Indefatigable & Renown class Battlecruisers from the First World War which overemphasised offensive firepower at the expense of defensive armour. Now a BC(L) is more like a German Derfflinger class which had a more well balanced mixture of offensive & defensive qualities.

Talking what equippment Manticore can put on his new Haven build Superdreads, you shouldn´t forget, that only the space Station are destroyed. I think, the most of the electronic toys are produced on the planet and if not yet, than after the Yawata strike. The most of the electronic Systems should be small enough, that you can put it into a shuttle for orbital transfer. Why Beowulf has to build the grav com tec, I have no answer, maybe Zero gravity is needed for that kind of tec.

Rincewind wrote:

Relax wrote:A BCL has 5000? or is it 6000 MK-16s.
BC'P had 330 Pods. Pods shrunk, so ~50% more pods now
BC'P now has roughly 500 pods.
500x14 = 7000 MK-16's....

So, which platform has the endurance and alpha strike capability now?

That is not necessarily true. The BC (P) WOULD have superior offensive capacity but it would still be as vulnerable as before as it does not have the defensive qualities. In essence it is like the Royal Navy's Invincible, Indefatigable & Renown class Battlecruisers from the First World War which overemphasised offensive firepower at the expense of defensive armour. Now a BC(L) is more like a German Derfflinger class which had a more well balanced mixture of offensive & defensive qualities.

check the timeline. wrong order on the pods. first pods shrank, then the BCP was designed, it is 360 of the new flatpack pods and no missile tubes according to HoS.
Agamemnon-class pod battlecruiser.
Mass: 1,750,750 tons
Dimensions: 815 × 118 × 110 m
Acceleration: 692.6 G (6.792 kps²)
80% Accel: 554.1 G (5.434 kps²)
Broadside: 10G, 30CM, 30PD
Fore: 4G, 12PD
Aft: 4MP, 4G, 12PD
Pods: 360
Number Built: 85+
Service Life: 1919–present
That is 40 pods a minute for 18 minutes. 5760 Mk-16 missiles (320 per minute) Alternately 3600 Mk-23 missiles without apollo, 2880 Mk-23 attack missiles with apollo.

Nike-class battlecruiser
Mass: 2,519,750 tons
Dimensions: 1012 × 129 × 114 m
Acceleration: 674.3 G (6.613 kps²)
80% Accel: 539.4 G (5.29 kps²)
Broadside: 25M, 12G, 32CM, 30PD
Chase: 4G, 12PD
Number Built: 12+
Service Life: 1920–present
Nike can launch a salvo of fifty missiles into any aspect, and her magazines allow for over forty minutes of maximum rate fire. (60/18= 3 1/3 salvo/min. 50*(10/3)*40= at least 6,667, probably 7,000 rounds.


The raw numbers don't show the truth. the Nike is also built more like a SD, with the same compartmentalization energy weapons, PDLC's, sidewalls, etc.

Maldorian wrote:Talking what equippment Manticore can put on his new Haven build Superdreads, you shouldn´t forget, that only the space Station are destroyed. I think, the most of the electronic toys are produced on the planet and if not yet, than after the Yawata strike. The most of the electronic Systems should be small enough, that you can put it into a shuttle for orbital transfer. Why Beowulf has to build the grav com tec, I have no answer, maybe Zero gravity is needed for that kind of tec.

Sorry Maldorian - I argued the same things in the months leading up to when MoH came out. I expected "Spacely Sprockets" and Cosgroves Cogs" to have their own space stations here and their doing subcontracted manufacturing ...

But David punctured holes in that argument with repeated burts from a Shrike Graser. There is virtually no medium or heavy manufacturing on any of the Manticorian Planets, or outside the 3 main stations in the Manticorian system. Every subcontractor produced their parts on the stations, and most of their workforce lived there.

According to what has been said, virtually all of the medium and heavy manufacturing done in the Manticorian system was done by less than 2 million people, and there are no other construction shipyards are in the Manticorian system. (But there are ship repair and maintenance assets at the junction and Manticore B space)

If you search you will find endless (yes, endless) conversations on this, usually punctuated with the question about what the 300 Million people living off planet in Manticore B space do for a living (Ore extraction and ore industry support are the 2 known job groups) because they aren't making anything.

darrell wrote:

Rincewind wrote:
That is not necessarily true. The BC (P) WOULD have superior offensive capacity but it would still be as vulnerable as before as it does not have the defensive qualities. In essence it is like the Royal Navy's Invincible, Indefatigable & Renown class Battlecruisers from the First World War which overemphasised offensive firepower at the expense of defensive armour. Now a BC(L) is more like a German Derfflinger class which had a more well balanced mixture of offensive & defensive qualities.

check the timeline. wrong order on the pods. first pods shrank, then the BCP was designed, it is 360 of the new flatpack pods and no missile tubes according to HoS.
Agamemnon-class pod battlecruiser.
Mass: 1,750,750 tons
Dimensions: 815 × 118 × 110 m
Acceleration: 692.6 G (6.792 kps²)
80% Accel: 554.1 G (5.434 kps²)
Broadside: 10G, 30CM, 30PD
Fore: 4G, 12PD
Aft: 4MP, 4G, 12PD
Pods: 360
Number Built: 85+
Service Life: 1919–present
That is 40 pods a minute for 18 minutes. 5760 Mk-16 missiles (320 per minute) Alternately 3600 Mk-23 missiles without apollo, 2880 Mk-23 attack missiles with apollo.

Nike-class battlecruiser
Mass: 2,519,750 tons
Dimensions: 1012 × 129 × 114 m
Acceleration: 674.3 G (6.613 kps²)
80% Accel: 539.4 G (5.29 kps²)
Broadside: 25M, 12G, 32CM, 30PD
Chase: 4G, 12PD
Number Built: 12+
Service Life: 1920–present
Nike can launch a salvo of fifty missiles into any aspect, and her magazines allow for over forty minutes of maximum rate fire. (60/18= 3 1/3 salvo/min. 50*(10/3)*40= at least 6,667, probably 7,000 rounds.


The raw numbers don't show the truth. the Nike is also built more like a SD, with the same compartmentalization energy weapons, PDLC's, sidewalls, etc.

One of the worst parts of HoS is the Pod model they reference for each class is never mentioned. With different in-service dates for the 7 classes of pod layers mentioned, every one could be referencing a different version of the 19 known pod marks in RMN usage, making it extremely hard to quantify the actual capabilities of each class in September 1922, as each pod takes up a different amount of space and carries different numbers and types of missiles.

Add into that, a refitted ship loses part of it's missile core for things like KHII computers, so an updated Invictus from the 1st war build traunche will carry fewer pods after it's KHII refit than a Python Lump Invictus, which was purpose built with KHII, and more importantly, will carry fewer pods in 1923 than it did in 1920.