solar power

Spacekiwi wrote:Damn but you get some nice power rates. Dont think ours have been near that low for 20 years plus.... That certainly makes a difference for any afforability concerns for you.


Cheers for that.

That $7,000 USD system is 7,000.00 USD = 9,134.45 AUD Australian (AUD). From http://themoneyconverter.com/AUD/USD.aspx



It is not just me or Florida. ARIZONA PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY (APS) buy back rate which is broken down into 24 different rates from $0.02888 cents to $0.04297 per kwh Feed-in Tariff. I think.

Just looked in Arizona because Solana Concentrated Solar Molten Salt Power Plant is in that service area. Which someone got me to thinking about here on the forums, thank you. Like I said you guys give me all kinds of things to think about and that entertains me.

On the other hand, for APS the rate is $0.09417 per kWh, from Nov to April; From May to Oct. $0.09687 per kWh for the first 400 kWh, plus $0.13817 per kWh for the next 400 kWh, plus $0.16167 per kWh for the next 2200 kWh, plus $0.17257 per kWh for all additional kWh. Slightly to twice as much as me depending.

Which really makes figuring out economics much more complicated. Consider if your system just puts out 400 kWH not only do you save that 400 ($38.75) you are also saving $0.0413 per kWH on the next 400 in the summer($16.52). Max savings $55.27 if you use 800 kWH. In the summer. 37.668 in the winter.

$557 for the year, in you use 800 kWH every month. And it generates 400 kWH in a month.

Just a hypothetical situation that CAN'T exist in real life. Just for grins using PVWttas Grid Anywhere a 5 kWp system in Gila Bend generates 8,737 kWHs. The array is 180 with a 20 degree tilt(a 4/12 roof). Monthly totals vary from 600 kWH in Dec to 882 in May. Which I find hilarious.

Then again I am easily amused.


Oh yeah, again the Gogreen site inverters I looked at are not allowed for an APS connected site. Not code compliant, I think. They are starting to remind me of a used car salesmen. "Honest it was only driven by a little old lady that only drove it to Pasadena on Sundays."


Plus exchanging/explaining ideas here helps find all the stupid errors I make even if you people are to nice to point them out to me.

Have fun, I am,
T2M

PS I sort of like the APS site. https://www.aps.com/en/residential/Pages/home.aspx seems to be better organized than FPLs ... or else I am just getting used to the language.

PPS for Daryl you posted while I was composing. A web site to look at for off the grid. http://www.technomadia.com/2015/02/livi ... ry-update/

The guy puts a big word count but good ideas and real world practical data with lessons learned.

PPPS My computer crashed and so that is all the editing of this post that I am going to do. Besides that 2.5 hours is long enough to bore you all.

The thermal component with a PVT design can reduce the payback period and boost the efficiency.

Another situation is running a well for watering that isn't near a power line. Given the cost of putting in a line, it pays off immediately A fueled generator has shorter life and higher running costs. The water tank supplies inexpensive storage so it doesn't matter much that power flow isn't steady. If a height difference is available or can be easily produced and power needs during off peak power periods are modest, it might be possible to use hydro storage for power.

Anyone who is further than, perhaps, an eighth mile from a power line should certainly look into PV. It looks like storage costs are coming down also. This is best if power demands are small.

In any case, making your mistakes on paper is less expensive, so do your calculations.

DDHvi wrote:...snip...

In any case, making your mistakes on paper is less expensive, so do your calculations.

Kind of in this vein and in the pilot project category. Also the reason I am VERY LEERY of sites that advertise stuff cheaply. As well as passing on some of my lessons learned.

If you are going to buy a portable lithium battery pack with the solar panel option. DON'T!!!!!

I bought 2 of them 23,000 mah batteries to run the notebook computer, charges cellphones and the like when camping. Battery part works great. Keeps up the charge for the normal campsite stay up to 4 days for two Cellphones and a tablet.

Solar option was to get me another day or more. Heck all my trips are in the summer lots of daylight, right. One doesn't charge at all the other spent about $30 extra each for a cool looking thing that charges in 4 days. It almost keeps up with the demands for a cellphone.

So this year I decided to create my own bought the 20 "2 watt" panels, fabricating a folding panel set, that oh yeah requires a voltage regulator. Despite manufacture claims. Not really complaining, more voltage is good right, and it is sort of. Until you start to fry other things.

Working on that. Remember when geeks could go to Radio Shack and get components. Not happening anymore. I had to go online where shipping is 4 times the cost of the components. Even with our relatively inexpensive US Postal Service rates.

Then I can stay in a campground (hiking and visiting local museums and such) until the food runs out without having to run the motorcycle for 5 hours to charge the dang battery packs(I have another battery pack with no solar component that has worked great for 3 years now). Excess electric there is converted to heat in the regulator anyway but ... I worry about vibration and I have to run an inverter to charge the battery packs. Though this year I also bought a dc to dc step up converter to get the required voltage to charge the packs and do away with the ac inverter. Simple to wire to the bike.

Hopefully I will actually be able to run the notebook everyday. The panels I bought are doing pretty well overall since I have "temporarily" rigged them up. It has rained every day for the past 6. Best output so far 1.4 watts a cell. Best total daily power output despite the crummy weather (solar power wise) is 5.4 wh per cell, last 2 days 4.3 wh and 3.9 wh. They are not currently optimally placed.

Added advantage to this is going to be to see if I can run the notebook and display when I at home with an old motor cycle battery, the panels and the inverter. One thing off the grid anyway.


Whole house is not going off the grid any time soon. Just self-installed an tankless water heater in Feb (old tank started leaking when guests shoed up ). Supposed to save energy but the draw of 18 kw is a bit more than battery pack and AC inverter is going to be able to support. That would be 75 amps @240 Volts for those interested and installing it required running another 240 circuit to the water heater. Actually 2, 8 gauge wire runs, as the tank water heater only drew 4 kw (for a much longer period!). For this house a simple install even with the hassle of running 2, ~10 foot 8 gauge wire runs. It did cost about twice as much as a straight replacement tank would have been but now shutting the house up for the summer involves 2 breakers and 2 valves. Instead of the hours long process to drain the tank, in addition to a valve and a circuit breaker. Another big plus is the Pantry just got another 8 square feet of usable storage.

But a thing to consider when making improvements. How is what I am doing doing to affect future notional options?

For example when the fuse box were upgraded to circuit breakers (10 year ago) spent extra money to have them install a 150 amp residential electric service without that upgrade the tankless was not going to happen. Old service was 75 amps which just happens to be the draw of the new tankless alone.

Just a long FYI post for you people to consider, if you want. Lots of other things learned by me but ... many are too stupid to really include.

Have fun all,
T2M

PS Another thing about prices even at Home Depot the web advertised price was $100 less than the store price. Another $15 dollars wasted on a valve that was defective. Didn't find that out until I had already soldiered it in. Then had to remove and replace it.

Things may be different there, but I would have installed either a solar storage hot water system, or a gas instant tankless system (big gas bottles), rather than a high current electricity system.

Daryl wrote:Things may be different there, but I would have installed either a solar storage hot water system, or a gas instant tankless system (big gas bottles), rather than a high current electricity system.

Already an all electric home. Heat/AC (AC broken but fixable) uses a 30 amp circuit breaker, stove uses a 50 amp circuit breaker.

How many square meters does the solar collector take up on your system? Curious.

Advertised price for getting one installed here is $6,000 to $11,000 when I did a prior search. Starting at 10 times the cost of the self installed tankless. A two day job just because I went slow and put a lot of thought into where things were going and such for the future. Probably could be done in a morning, in this house.

I really wanted a tankless for ease in shut down for 4 or 6 months while I travel the US. Pkus a way to get more shelves into the utility room, bigger pantry is better, right? I think too much it is amazing what I can worry about. "Did I shut off the main water valve?" "Did I shut off the water heater inlet and outlet?" "What if the valve(s) fails?" Ect. and so forth. Not that I still won't worry but not about it so much.


Gas was not happening. Propane is the only option.To start with the unit is "advertised" at 50% more. Not really something I want in the yard. Neighbors would not really approve. I have no clue as to zoning requirements. Think about all that would be required. Run a gas line. Run a exhaust pipe. Roof penetration. I probably would have had a different views if I had a cellar and natural gas connection already.

Dad was a Carpenter's Union member for 50 years and taught me the value of those zoning requirements. Also when and where they can be bent if you understand the implications. I watched the roof get installed in 2006 after the 4(I think) hurricanes in 2005. I watched windows get installed a couple of years ago. Those taught me I am not in rural western New York anymore and I need to learn a clue for here.

Just a thought experiment. Which way does your outside doors swing? Why is it that way? Was it the same reasoning in the past? No need to answer just a thought.

Have fun all,
T2M

As I said things are often different which makes these discussions even more interesting.
The solar HWS on my home costs about $3500 and has twin panels of about 2 mtrs by 1.2 mtrs and a 300 litre tank (it has an electric booster which is switched off 99% of the time).
The instant gas HWS on one of my investment houses is about 1.2 mtrs high, 200 mm deep and 400 mm wide, quite small and unobtrusive, costs about $800. It runs off the same propane bottles as the stove and is quite cheap to run. Very common here. Easy to switch off and restart if you are away a lot. Self contained with no external exhaust or roof penetration as on outside wall, gas line to bottles no more trouble than electric cable.
We change our politicians here like nappies (diapers) and for the same reason of getting full of s**t. A progressive state government banned all new electric HWS here, the next conservative government unbanned them, and the current progressive one hopefully will ban them again.

In the continuing saga of my quest for a campsite solar charger.

Got both sets built. Earlier post had an error I didn't notice until today. It is [Edit] 20 "2 watt" solar panels. "I thought I was worng but I was mistaken" [end edit.]

I have manufactured plexi glass foldouts that end up being 7" by 9" by about 2. Weighs about 2 or 3 pounds each. Plexiglass because it is going to get jostled moving from one place to another. Welcome to motorcycle basics.

I also found out to check the new gauges you buy for accuracy. Yep, I got a badly calibrated power meter. Voltage was off by 70%, amps not so much. Found out more or less by accident. Manufacturer even let me keep the defective one with instructions on how to calibrate it if I want. Not going to happen as I don't have the tools but nice of them. Sent me a new one for free well amazon shipping but I discount that. Bayite if anyone is interested.

The "2 watt" panels actually deliver about a[edit] watt at max power[end edit] (sort of figured this we are talking Amazon). Good thing is they are fairly durable in their own right for traveling. They do mostly deliver the voltage promised which is important. I don't need to create that voltage regulator I designed and bought parts for. (Spare parts for the next deal ).

For testing I have had them laying on my roof for about 3 weeks now. (yeah, I know can't leave anything out or it will be stolen, go figure) Average output for both tied together is about 120 wh a day with excellent conditions. Battery packs each take about 85 wh to fully charge. Not ideal as I planned to binge use the computer if I wanted but good enough if it holds up to the trip. <crosses fingers> Mostly easily repairable as long as I don't break a cell and can get to a home depot, lowe's or any hardware store in the areas I plan am normally in.

One interesting thing as I have rarely touched them in the last week. Is they in fact do get fairly dirty here. I did mention testing they have been out in the rain, dew and other weather.

Next interesting thing is when I went out with my hand held infra-meter the panels show 150+ F. Even elevated with a path for air to get through under them. Good news is the roof was measuring 140+ in the sun but under the panels it dropped to 112.

Which might make a difference with household heat if I decide to install panels. Saved expense on a/c or just comfort. Added expense for heating. Kind of a unsure which way that will break down.

Economic. Yes and no.

It will result in the battery packs lasting longer as less Depth of Discharge (DoD) and vibration while charging. Provided the electronics in the pack hold out (these things really do seem to be made out of cheese). Will it save me fuel for the motorcycle probably, I think. But the setup cost me about the price that Amazon wants for two "20 watt" usb chargers that would not work for my use(a friend bought one looking forward to comparing results). Setup is less than a solar computer charger though. Compared to the "claimed 45" watt Harbor Freight setup undoubtedly.

I had a grand time thinking about stuff and making them work.

Hopefully next year I will remember to post the trip results.

Have fun all,
T2M

Edit sorry for the error. Some days I can count and some days ...

I suspect that in the longer hot periods of sunshine heat transfer will wipe out the shading effect.


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Annachie wrote:I suspect that in the longer hot periods of sunshine heat transfer will wipe out the shading effect.


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I may be misunderstanding your comment.

But for the day in question it was straight sunshine for dawn to dusk. Very few clouds. Mar, Apr and May are the best solar months based on PVWATTS for here. Which is also backed up by real world data for Space Coast and Desoto solar plants output from the EIA for the past 6 years.

Solar panel manufacturers actually recommend at least a 4 inch space between the panel and the roof. That is why I put that air gap on the motorcycle campsite setup for testing.

If I put up 12 panels I get ~1/4 of the roof covered. The air gap reduces straight solar radiance heating and the air will be a minor chimney affect under it. Reducing the transference even more.

That seems to indicate that for here I would probably need more heat and less affect on the need for A/C (if I was silly enough to use it.)

Though for me the A/C and being here from June through Oct is moot. I like Chief Joseph sentiment. When it gets too hot in one place move to someplace it isn't. Why I refer to myself as a snowbird. Live in FL when it is cold up north. Go on a wander when it gets hot down here. Though that doesn't always work so well. June in New Mexico and triple digit heat not so good. Fortunately there was a National Forest in the Mountains less than 20 miles away (well 7 miles if you hiked 7 miles and 4,000 feet up) where it was 30 degrees cooler.

By the way yesterday was my best day yet. partly cloudy with 20 mph winds to keep the testing rig on the roof cooler. The set with better air circulation (smller wood blocks) doing better than the other. Rain the other day also cleaned them.

By the way II. Got the bill for last month. My cost per kwh went from $0.0838 to $0.0816. Fuel charge, what I get paid for excess sold, went from $0.0258 to $0.0217. Putting them 10 or 12 panels up keeps getting less and less economic.

Unless, of course, I sponge off my fellow tax payers.

Have fun,
T2M

T2M, we can only dream of power costs as low as yours, and I agree that solar would probably not be competitive on price there.
The end result here is that a family in a modest house being careful will pay about $100 a month, while an extravagant family in a McMansion with swimming pool and ducted air conditioning will pay $700 a month.
In my case I get a cheque for about $300 once a year, but all in all I stumped up about $12k for my system, so as a medium user (that is say $200 a month) or $2.4k + $0.3k a year saving or 22% tax free return. Some would be subsidised by fellow tax payers, but damn it I peaked at about $80k tax while working, and still pay tax while now retired so not feeling guilty.