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US Presidential Candidates

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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:55 pm

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Some moral values transcend idiology. If they don't, then idiology IS morality. There is no compromise with those that hold their political idiology defines their morality. These are the zealots and fanatics with whom there is only agree or be destroyed. Unless one actually wins the fight and destroys the bigoted MF.

Most of us living on this earth believe launching a global war simply to employ people is immoral. This is not part of our politics but our moral conviction.

The E wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Agreed. I would posit that some goals with real world, objective metrics may bridge such divides.

Improving unemployment is a good one. Create some measurable amount of net new jobs than existed at beginning of the term. Improving the median wage by some stated amount or percentage. Whatever policies that are consistent with those goals should be fine for most people. That is the sort of ideology free goals I am discussing. Like South Africa using their policy on private hunting preserves owning the elephants in their property to increase the elephant population, effective policies might by distasteful but they do work.

Holding one's ideologically sensitive nose in the presence of effective policy is a measure of adulthood.


Okay. You know what a really good way of creating jobs is? Invading China. Lots of job opportunities in that; kicking off a world war requires lots of manpower after all.

Now, obviously that's an absurd example. But ideology can never be counted out completely; there are for example schools of thought that claim that removing as much regulation as possible from the economy will create growth, whereas other schools hold that we can create an environment conducive to more entrepreneurship can be created by creating a robust social safety net.

Both positions can be argued for, both have compelling evidence behind them all over the globe, but they are obviously incompatible to some extent. It is impossible to do both, so which solution should we choose? That's where ideology creeps in again and again.

The idea that we should just science it out and choose the option the objective data points out to us is incredibly compelling. But it doesn't work out that way: The only way to run experiments to get data is by doing it live, and that's obviously a bit risky.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by The E   » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:22 am

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PeterZ wrote:Some moral values transcend idiology. If they don't, then idiology IS morality. There is no compromise with those that hold their political idiology defines their morality. These are the zealots and fanatics with whom there is only agree or be destroyed. Unless one actually wins the fight and destroys the bigoted MF.


Moral values may be near universal for a given culture (for example, charity is held as a highly moral act in western value systems), but how they translate into policy is different everywhere; There is no consensus in western culture, or even within any particular country, where the dividing line between good charity that helps and enables and bad charity which coddles and disables is. For some, any government handout is one too many, for others, creating a level playing field by ensuring a minimum starting level for all players is one of the most important jobs government has.

What I'm trying to say is that morality and ideology are so strongly intertwined that trying to separate them in order to arrive at policy that is "moral" but not "ideological" is impossible.

Most of us living on this earth believe launching a global war simply to employ people is immoral. This is not part of our politics but our moral conviction.


And yet, wars have been launched over far more petty issues. The US' propensity to use military action against foreign enemies to exploit knee-jerk "support the troops" reactions to bolster the current administration is noted in this regard.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:13 am

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I don't disagree. I am all for the US military staying home and savings its energy for more direct threats.

I am sorry but policy and morality are not so tightly intertwined. There is too much politics in making policy. Domestic policy too often crafted to appeal to specific constituents rather than truly addressing stated goals. Immigration comes to mind. One side vocally supports lax immigration law enforcement without changing the laws themselves even when they can. That policy isn't for the benefit of the illegal immigrant but for the politician to secure votes from a constituency.

There are many policies that are in effect for such political maneuvers and have nothing to do with morality. Quite the opposite.

The E wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Some moral values transcend idiology. If they don't, then idiology IS morality. There is no compromise with those that hold their political idiology defines their morality. These are the zealots and fanatics with whom there is only agree or be destroyed. Unless one actually wins the fight and destroys the bigoted MF.


Moral values may be near universal for a given culture (for example, charity is held as a highly moral act in western value systems), but how they translate into policy is different everywhere; There is no consensus in western culture, or even within any particular country, where the dividing line between good charity that helps and enables and bad charity which coddles and disables is. For some, any government handout is one too many, for others, creating a level playing field by ensuring a minimum starting level for all players is one of the most important jobs government has.

What I'm trying to say is that morality and ideology are so strongly intertwined that trying to separate them in order to arrive at policy that is "moral" but not "ideological" is impossible.

Most of us living on this earth believe launching a global war simply to employ people is immoral. This is not part of our politics but our moral conviction.


And yet, wars have been launched over far more petty issues. The US' propensity to use military action against foreign enemies to exploit knee-jerk "support the troops" reactions to bolster the current administration is noted in this regard.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Daryl   » Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:44 pm

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Fully agree PeterZ, one of our longest serving PMs tripped up when he finally got control of our senate and had to impliment all the hard right promises he had made but couldn't get through before (what a pity). Lost the next election and his own seat.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:03 am

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I believe that's the appeal of both Sanders and Trump. US moneyed interests support both Dems and Reps to make sure they have political support regardless of who actually wins the elections. Trump confirmed this was indeed his practice prior to running.

The electorate already know this is the case. many of his supporters find Trump appealing because his policies attempt to level the playing field with respect to foreign competition for jobs and commerce. Sanders' appeal is similar, if his solutions are different.

Sanders' appeal grows as Democrats realize Mrs. Clinton is corrupt enough to have illegally taken advantage of her foundation regardless of whether she is indicted. Any indictment avoided reflects more of her political capital (blackmail material) than any innocence on her part. Bengahzi is more a visceral symbol of her disregard for her subordinates than anything else. Sure it signifies illegalities, but those are indeed arcane rules that only cause harm in the abstract. Her disregard for her subordinates reflects a pattern of walking all over the "little guy".

Trump appeals to parts of a Republican base that recognized that the Bush's and Clinton's are very friendly with each other. GHW Bush remains good friends with both Clinton's and have been for years. The left's hatred for GW Bush derives from his policies that suggest he waged war for gains that benefited the moneyed elite. By denouncing that practice and suggesting his immunity to being bought out, trump appeals to those who have had enough of elites calling all the shots. Yes, he did do the bribe....er....donating to politicians, but he does not need to receive money from elites needing returned favors.

Many working class folks find Trump appealing because of his policies. This last group is heavily Democrat who are also fed up with elites directing their party.

Personally, I suspect that Sanders will determine whether Clinton is indicted or not. If he continues to gain elected delegates with electoral wins, the elites will begin to walk away from Mrs. Clinton. As they walk the Justice Department will have fewer political constraints to accepting the FBI's pending referral to indict HRC.

Daryl wrote:Fully agree PeterZ, one of our longest serving PMs tripped up when he finally got control of our senate and had to impliment all the hard right promises he had made but couldn't get through before (what a pity). Lost the next election and his own seat.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Imaginos1892   » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:43 pm

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I don't see how anybody could vote for any of those losers. They are all bloviating different kinds of bullshit that only idiots could believe.

The only real question is whether they are cynically manipulating their idiot followers, or actually stupid enough to believe their own bullshit.

At this point, I fear our only hope is for some terrible accident to take out the lot of 'em so we can start over.
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Why do so many idiots believe that the way to solve our problems is to keep voting for the same shitheads that caused them?
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Daryl   » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:16 pm

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I've said it before in this thread. How with over 300M educated people in an innovating country like the USA could you have come up with such a pack of potential leaders?
Surely a random number generator using Social Security numbers would have done better?

Imaginos1892 wrote:I don't see how anybody could vote for any of those losers. They are all bloviating different kinds of bullshit that only idiots could believe.

The only real question is whether they are cynically manipulating their idiot followers, or actually stupid enough to believe their own bullshit.

At this point, I fear our only hope is for some terrible accident to take out the lot of 'em so we can start over.
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Why do so many idiots believe that the way to solve our problems is to keep voting for the same shitheads that caused them?
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:49 pm

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Because too many of us are so disillusioned with our elites' preferences for President, we will vote for ANYONE ELSE. Trump as some devoted supporters, but they are not nearly the majority of Trump voters. The majority knows he is dreadfully imperfect, but he is NOT beholden to the diner elites. That and he is focusing on economic issues that has left the working class sucking air. Cruz's appeal is that so many of his colleagues hats him, he MUST be enough of an outsider to be worth supporting.

This is the biggest eff you vote since Herbert Hoover got whacked by FDR in 1932.

Daryl wrote:I've said it before in this thread. How with over 300M educated people in an innovating country like the USA could you have come up with such a pack of potential leaders?
Surely a random number generator using Social Security numbers would have done better?

Imaginos1892 wrote:I don't see how anybody could vote for any of those losers. They are all bloviating different kinds of bullshit that only idiots could believe.

The only real question is whether they are cynically manipulating their idiot followers, or actually stupid enough to believe their own bullshit.

At this point, I fear our only hope is for some terrible accident to take out the lot of 'em so we can start over.
----------------------
Why do so many idiots believe that the way to solve our problems is to keep voting for the same shitheads that caused them?
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by biochem   » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:13 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Because too many of us are so disillusioned with our elites' preferences for President, we will vote for ANYONE ELSE. Trump as some devoted supporters, but they are not nearly the majority of Trump voters. The majority knows he is dreadfully imperfect, but he is NOT beholden to the diner elites. That and he is focusing on economic issues that has left the working class sucking air. Cruz's appeal is that so many of his colleagues hats him, he MUST be enough of an outsider to be worth supporting.

This is the biggest eff you vote since Herbert Hoover got whacked by FDR in 1932.




Don't forget Sanders on the left is the Democratic version of the same.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:11 am

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Both Biochem and PeterZ's comments struck me when I read this poll from the AP. Americans don't trust either political party. Strangely enough. ;)

http://ap-gfkpoll.com/main/wp-content/u ... health.pdf

29 pages light on words though.

Reading the poll questions and answers are informative. More proving the American public is very irrational when you look at how the numbers from generalities to specifics.

Note the only reason I looked at this poll is because of how badly it was against the Affordable Care Act on Real Clear Politics. Expected to see right wingnut answers. Which it seems it isn't.

Also note that 48 percent of the respondents don't have a landline which seems to be skewing a lot of polling data this silly election season.

Yep I am even more confused now.

T2M
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Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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