Abigail's first ship

Somtaaw wrote:

pnakasone wrote:A question is it expected that someone gets a command after the crusher or is merely a necessary step on the path to command?

It's merely a requirement of command, the Crusher is the similar to middy cruise's. A middy cruise is considered the true 'final exam' for students of the naval academy, they're already going to pass as students, but they have to 'pass' their middy cruise if they expect to actually receive warrants and become officers in the navy.

Likewise, the Crusher is the final 'test' of officers who wish to receive a command of their own. Until they pass the Crusher, they can be XO's, or a staff officer, but they will never be a Captain, commanding officer. If they fail the Crusher, they will generally be kept in the service, but they'll never receive that coveted position. I think they're even pulled entirely out of 'line' positions, to be exclusively staff officers if they fail the Crusher.

What is the explanation for Admiral Santino or Captain Pavel Young?

npadln wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:It's merely a requirement of command, the Crusher is the similar to middy cruise's. A middy cruise is considered the true 'final exam' for students of the naval academy, they're already going to pass as students, but they have to 'pass' their middy cruise if they expect to actually receive warrants and become officers in the navy.

Likewise, the Crusher is the final 'test' of officers who wish to receive a command of their own. Until they pass the Crusher, they can be XO's, or a staff officer, but they will never be a Captain, commanding officer. If they fail the Crusher, they will generally be kept in the service, but they'll never receive that coveted position. I think they're even pulled entirely out of 'line' positions, to be exclusively staff officers if they fail the Crusher.

What is the explanation for Admiral Santino or Captain Pavel Young?

IMO comes down to two factors. First, political pressure to promote a peer of the relm.

Second, and probably more important, a darker than average breathing appendage.

Somtaaw wrote:

pnakasone wrote:A question is it expected that someone gets a command after the crusher or is merely a necessary step on the path to command?

It's merely a requirement of command, the Crusher is the similar to middy cruise's. A middy cruise is considered the true 'final exam' for students of the naval academy, they're already going to pass as students, but they have to 'pass' their middy cruise if they expect to actually receive warrants and become officers in the navy.

Likewise, the Crusher is the final 'test' of officers who wish to receive a command of their own. Until they pass the Crusher, they can be XO's, or a staff officer, but they will never be a Captain, commanding officer. If they fail the Crusher, they will generally be kept in the service, but they'll never receive that coveted position. I think they're even pulled entirely out of 'line' positions, to be exclusively staff officers if they fail the Crusher.

Its not really command but command of a warship if you don't pass ATC you would be relegated to commanding auxiliaries like repair ships and transports.

darrell wrote:

npadln wrote:[

What is the explanation for Admiral Santino or Captain Pavel Young?

IMO comes down to two factors. First, political pressure to promote a peer of the relm.

Second, and probably more important, a darker than average breathing appendage.

They broke under battle conditions that would have tested their resolve in ways that the crusher can not really test for.

Admiral Santino did not want to look like a coward by not fighting and retreating . Even though it was a situation that Honor said it would have been better for him to retreat and preserve his forces to fight another day.

Pavel Young had never faced a situation that had a very good possibility of him getting killed.

They could have easily been confident enough to pass the crusher but had personality weakness that sealed their fates later.

For every Honor Harrington you have many more that are simply confident but not brilliant commanding officers.

Look at military history you will find many stories of people who excelled in training that failed spectacularly on the actual battlefield.

saber964 wrote:Its not really command but command of a warship if you don't pass ATC you would be relegated to commanding auxiliaries like repair ships and transports.

If you spectacularly enough they may even question your right to still be in the service.

I wonder if the RMN has its own equivalent to the GNS Francis Mueller. A ship to send individuals that have yet to mess up badly enough to make it worth the paper work to court martial and throw out of the military.

Edit: oops, I see pnakasone already made much the same points.

darrell wrote:

npadln wrote:
What is the explanation for Admiral Santino or Captain Pavel Young?

IMO comes down to two factors. First, political pressure to promote a peer of the relm.

Second, and probably more important, a darker than average breathing appendage.

Also their moral and physical cowardliness, respectively, isn't quite the same thing as tactical inability.

Santino charged into a poor tactical position to attempt to exploit an assumed technical superiority (monopoly of towed pods) to cover his lack of preparedness. He wasn't willing to take the moral choice of withdrawing without a fight because the inquiry would expose his failure to maintain appropriate readiness within his command. Victory could hide those sins.
But that tendency to slack off probably can't get uncovered by the ATC because a) it's too short for students to get bored, lazy, and sloppy; and b) they know they're being closely watched. It would be very hard to put students in believable situations where they have to trade off risk to their career against sound strategic choices simply because they know it's a simulation and there isn't actually any career impact form their choice.

Similarly for Pavil the knowledge that the ATC was artificial simulations where he wasn't ever in any physical danger he wouldn't have had the stress that cause him to panic in the face of the enemy. Again I don't know how an environment they know is simulated can test their physical courage under fire.


I doubt they were near top of their class; but with the reduced stress of knowing all the ATC engagements were simulations they probably managed passing grades (if possibly only just).

Jonathan_S wrote:Edit: oops, I see pnakasone already made much the same points.

darrell wrote:

npadln wrote:
What is the explanation for Admiral Santino or Captain Pavel Young?

IMO comes down to two factors. First, political pressure to promote a peer of the relm.

Second, and probably more important, a darker than average breathing appendage.

Jonathan_S wrote:Also their moral and physical cowardliness, respectively, isn't quite the same thing as tactical inability.

Santino charged into a poor tactical position to attempt to exploit an assumed technical superiority (monopoly of towed pods) to cover his lack of preparedness. He wasn't willing to take the moral choice of withdrawing without a fight because the inquiry would expose his failure to maintain appropriate readiness within his command. Victory could hide those sins.
But that tendency to slack off probably can't get uncovered by the ATC because a) it's too short for students to get bored, lazy, and sloppy; and b) they know they're being closely watched. It would be very hard to put students in believable situations where they have to trade off risk to their career against sound strategic choices simply because they know it's a simulation and there isn't actually any career impact form their choice.

Similarly for Pavil the knowledge that the ATC was artificial simulations where he wasn't ever in any physical danger he wouldn't have had the stress that cause him to panic in the face of the enemy. Again I don't know how an environment they know is simulated can test their physical courage under fire.


I doubt they were near top of their class; but with the reduced stress of knowing all the ATC engagements were simulations they probably managed passing grades (if possibly only just).

It's more like Santino charged into a fruitless tactical position - considering he was also ill-prepared and lacking the full support of his staff.

Jonathan_S wrote:But that tendency to slack off probably can't get uncovered by the ATC because a) it's too short for students to get bored, lazy, and sloppy; and b) they know they're being closely watched. It would be very hard to put students in believable situations where they have to trade off risk to their career against sound strategic choices simply because they know it's a simulation and there isn't actually any career impact form their choice.

There is also the fact that both would have gone through the Crusher when they were much younger and less jaded than they were when their careers ended. They may well have been competent enough to pass the Crusher then where they would have failed miserably if required to revisit the Crusher closer to their demise.

We have to take into account that Santino begin his career in the RMN well before King Rogers III buildup for the coming war with the Peoples Republic.


Young never really took the idea of a major war with Peoples Republic as something that actually would occur. He probably thought he would just do his time and rise thorough the ranks with out any real worry.

Abigail is lucky in a way as warfare opens up express lanes on the roads of promotion that would never be available other wise.

pnakasone wrote:We have to take into account that Santino begin his career in the RMN well before King Rogers III buildup for the coming war with the Peoples Republic.


Young never really took the idea of a major war with Peoples Republic as something that actually would occur. He probably thought he would just do his time and rise thorough the ranks with out any real worry.

Abigail is lucky in a way as warfare opens up express lanes on the roads of promotion that would never be available other wise.

Abigail's also lucky in the fact that she started our as a wing 'man - and it's whose wing that matters. The admiralty already noted that people under Honor's wing tend to soar higher.