Trade Protection and Use of Captured Units

marklbailey wrote:That also gives this fictional Admiralty exactly the problem the real one had with Dominion naval forces, how to ensure training to common standards? Within the British Empire that was done by mutually agreed standards, adoption of RN training systems and standards etc. That will not work easily on the sort of scale involved in this fictional universe. it will have to be 'tiered' especially at lower skill/education levels.

This is precisely where a standardised class of TS inexpensive enough for each 'nation' to own and operate directly is required. It enables the upper end of a remedial training system to be standardised. That forms a 'gateway' in terms of standards. In this case, that 'gateway' will be the minimum standard required for remedially trained personnel to be employable in basic roles aboard Imperial Navy ships to Imperial Naval standards. That means they can start cycles of Imperial service - back to their own Navy to raise their standards. This is all common 'train the trainers' stuff, I might add. The Romans did stuff like this.

One problem with mirroring to closely to what was done in history up through early WWI is that up to that point the differences in systems between obsolete units resigned to training commands (or even captured units assigned to training commands) and front line units was usually a fairly small matter of degree. The gun caliber might be bigger; you might have guns in turrets instead of casements, but most of the equipment and actions were pretty similar. There were still some differences (in things like fire control and range-finding; but you had a very limited number of sailors who needed technical training to handle those).

Once you move into late WWI, and accelerating through WWII the differences become much much larger; and dominated first by the evolving engineering systems, then by the rapidly proliferating and growing complexity of their combat systems. Oil firing vs coal; or later diesel or nuclear or gas turbine; Sonar, Radar, digitized versions of each, computerized signal processing of each; unified plotting, data link, sensor fusion; steady evolution of missiles and guided weapons of various sorts and their control hardware, etc, etc, etc.

Training sailors on the specific combat systems became a major hurdle; enough so that it took significant retraining to move them between ship classes within the same navy that had different combat system architectures.


Training the Talbott Quadrant SDFs on captured SLN navy equipment gives them a relatively minor leg up once you want to transition them to first0 (or even second- or third-) line RMN equipment. The design and interfaces of most of the combat systems are just too different; so the training of how to perform maintenance or operations on old SLN stuff doesn't really bridge over to RMN stuff. Its only (IMHO) worth doing if you're going to keep the Talbott SDFs on ex-SLN 4th tier stuff for at least a generation (15-20 years). Otherwise it's just a waste of time; you'd be better off doing groundside training in simulators for how to handle, maintain, and repair RMN combat systems.

MaxxQ wrote:Adding to what you've mentioned about armor, one thing I don't recall seeing anyone mention is that the armor is grown in place. It's not plates welded onto a framework - it's formed around the framework.

Isn't that grown-in-place armor a relatively new Manticoran development -- and not really applicable to SLN construction?

Jonathan_S wrote:Training the Talbott Quadrant SDFs on captured SLN navy equipment gives them a relatively minor leg up once you want to transition them to first0 (or even second- or third-) line RMN equipment. The design and interfaces of most of the combat systems are just too different; so the training of how to perform maintenance or operations on old SLN stuff doesn't really bridge over to RMN stuff. Its only (IMHO) worth doing if you're going to keep the Talbott SDFs on ex-SLN 4th tier stuff for at least a generation (15-20 years). Otherwise it's just a waste of time; you'd be better off doing groundside training in simulators for how to handle, maintain, and repair RMN combat systems.

A point that was made when I suggested using the captured ships as training resources was that there were numerous alternatives that were less manpower intensive and closer to modern RMN tech.

Using the captured ships is possible. However, it has NOT been done, or even suggested, in-universe and several years have elapsed since Crandall's task force and those other alternatives have gotten well ahead of any use of the obsolete SLN garbage.

Theemile wrote:1 more point on Troop Transports - this is taking place in a era where the Manty merchant marine was recalled from the SL due to war fears. This means somewhere between 10,000 and 40,000 merchies are limited to just 1/2 their normal trading grounds and most are sitting either idle or under-utilized - finding extra troop transports is not an issue at this time.

As I said previously, the timing on everything is important.

The removal of Manty hulls from the SL isn't as big a factor as some people seem to think. Although manticore has the highest number of hulls and the SL the second largest, there are many many many thousands of other systems that have a few freighters.

1. Manty hulls are pulled from the SL.
2. Manty hulls won't be idle, they will go to the other spots and give discounts to keep busy.
3. Independent freighters that used to have that route will now be out of work.
4. Hearing that no manti freighter is working the SL, they will move to the SL, which needs shipping.
5. As far as I know, Independent freighters carrying SL goods or goods for the SL will still be allowed to pass.

There are some other ways to mitigate the shipping vacume. SL regitered hulls do strictly local shipping, and where someone could buy gadget x from someone across a wormhold junciton for $10, they could probably buy the same gadget fro $11 at a nearby system.

Weird Harold wrote:Isn't that grown-in-place armor a relatively new Manticoran development -- and not really applicable to SLN construction?

I believe per MWW, standard hull construction on SD's has been 'Battle Steel' for quite a while. It's grow using one of the few non-medical uses for nanites. As a result, it's non practical to redo the hulls. Few rare materials, and the precision tools take forever.

Essentially think of everything being a WW2 Battleship in construction, and the difficulties with say, running fiber optic cable past a 17 inch steel bulkhead.

Ironically, the more modern designs of SD(P) and CLACs are probably the easiest to convert since they aren't as heavily partitioned.

The only think really to be done for SD is steal those parts worth taking, and sell the scrap off. With the solly parts, I'd imagine there's enough small polities needing parts, and maybe a few ships. Some of the parts are likely common enough no matter what they have use. But beyond a certain point of critical parts scrounging, its not worth doing the breaking work.

Let Hauptman or someone else like him spend the time and money pulling cabling and parts.

For some smaller craft (DD-LC) and the auxiliaries, the refit/reuse/resale path is clearer. But SD's will require essentially tactical nukes to just break open the hull.

darrell wrote:The removal of Manty hulls from the SL isn't as big a factor as some people seem to think. Although manticore has the highest number of hulls and the SL the second largest, there are many many many thousands of other systems that have a few freighters.

Point of order: Those "some people" are the SL leadership. They estimate that a third of the total shipping capacity in league space was on Manticoran hulls at least part of the way. While there are undoubtedly many shipping hulls available in the League, there aren't enough to pick up that much slack in a short amount of time, not to mention the disruption Laocoon 2 is causing.

1. Manty hulls are pulled from the SL.
2. Manty hulls won't be idle, they will go to the other spots and give discounts to keep busy.
3. Independent freighters that used to have that route will now be out of work.
4. Hearing that no manti freighter is working the SL, they will move to the SL, which needs shipping.
5. As far as I know, Independent freighters carrying SL goods or goods for the SL will still be allowed to pass.

Sure, the Manty shipping fleet will turn its eye on Haven and whatever sector gets liberated from the League.
But again: the independents they're displacing are not going to be able to make up for the shipping shortfall in the League proper.

There are some other ways to mitigate the shipping vacume. SL regitered hulls do strictly local shipping, and where someone could buy gadget x from someone across a wormhold junciton for $10, they could probably buy the same gadget fro $11 at a nearby system.

If they could, they would do so already.

You might get short term advantage if you have recent production or upgrade FF DD/CL/CAs in good condition and can use them to upgrade some of the SDFs in the SEM's Talbott Quadrant (or Silesia) forces.
Based on what seems to come through from the books, many of the SDF's that have anything beyond LACs have some variation of SLN tech ships. They may be really old surplus, built by SLN contractors under license for other clients or buiilt in places like Chalice using licensed plans and equipment. So they may or may not use the same equipment and missiles , just older versions. If so, you may be able to upgrade your SDF by replacing a DD with a former, newer FF DD, etc. That is a short term fix. What you really want to do is bring the SDF of the various systems in both Talbott and Silesia up to training in modern SEM equipment and put them in SEM ships. If the transition is to get them in more capable equipment (captured from SLN/FF-BF) that they can already operate, it could be worth doing. If the SLN ammunition (missiles, cm's etc) is also compatible with what the ships of the variouis SDF's have, you might just shift over those with instruction materials, testing gear and spair parts. Otherwise, just let your newest SDFs keep doing what they are going but shift over to SEM policies etc.

SLN repair ships, ammuntion ships, troop ships and other auxiliaries are probably usable as is. You would be replacing the entire crews but much of the equipment should be usable. Ammunition ships would take some work, you have to determine if you can use them to service "just" the former Talbott SDF warships &/or are covertable to handling SEM ammunition. It "depends". Troop ships are more or less straight forward. You hall troops, equipment etc and feed and keep them breathing while doing it. How you embark and land them is a question though if you are not dealing with a contested landing, you don't have to get your troop ship crews trained up (yet) in combat drops and support. You will want to work on that with the equipment you have. Theorectialy each of those types and other Aux ships would have mil/spec particle shields, compensators, hyperdrives etc and probably some level of defensive weapons.

In both the cases of Talbott and Silesia, SEM is probably going to have to keep ships of the former systems SDF in service to provide for a level of at least local defense. They also need to train with SEM ships if for nothing else than experience and practice. An older varient of a SLN design DD through CH in the hands of an experienced crew is much better than having nothing. We know that there have been some problems with the Silesian ConFed Navy and various Silesan quadrant SDFs but that has been getting sorted out and expect that the bad apples are mostly gone so the integration into RMN can move along. Talbott's SDFs came at this with an entirely differnt attitude and should transistion much more smoothly. It will just take time.

Side though: using freighters as troop transports is going to take modifications and additions. Most freighters are primarily large open cargo holds with gear and fixtures to tie down/secure shipping containers and cargo. To put 1,000 to say nothing of 5-15,000 troops on a freighter is going to mean adding capasity to support them, probably in the manner of specialized modular containers. You would have to hook them into the ship's power, communications etc. You also are going to have to deal with all of the enviornmental needs which- adding 1,000 + people- should be way beyond the as-built capacity of even a larger freighter which wasn't designed or modified to carry any significat number of passengers.
Again, if you have captured SLN transports (or the ships that Gen Yucel) used to take the Intervention Battalion out from Meyers) then you would gain designed and dedicated troop transports with all the expected capaisity even if it is Solly equipment. It's not trash, it's just not up to RMN or RHN etc. standard. It's usable until you can replace it.

feyhunde wrote:I believe per MWW, standard hull construction on SD's has been 'Battle Steel' for quite a while. It's grow using one of the few non-medical uses for nanites. As a result, it's non practical to redo the hulls. Few rare materials, and the precision tools take forever.

Essentially think of everything being a WW2 Battleship in construction, and the difficulties with say, running fiber optic cable past a 17 inch steel bulkhead.

Battle Steel is a carbon nanocomposite. It is ridiculously tough and strong and forms the hull of non-armored ships and the non-armored parts of armored ships. When you armor a ship you use materials that are one or more orders of magnitude tougher and more resistant to damage.

The E wrote:

darrell wrote:The removal of Manty hulls from the SL isn't as big a factor as some people seem to think. Although manticore has the highest number of hulls and the SL the second largest, there are many many many thousands of other systems that have a few freighters.

Point of order: Those "some people" are the SL leadership. They estimate that a third of the total shipping capacity in league space was on Manticoran hulls at least part of the way. While there are undoubtedly many shipping hulls available in the League, there aren't enough to pick up that much slack in a short amount of time, not to mention the disruption Laocoon 2 is causing.

1. Manty hulls are pulled from the SL.
2. Manty hulls won't be idle, they will go to the other spots and give discounts to keep busy.
3. Independent freighters that used to have that route will now be out of work.
4. Hearing that no manti freighter is working the SL, they will move to the SL, which needs shipping.
5. As far as I know, Independent freighters carrying SL goods or goods for the SL will still be allowed to pass.

Sure, the Manty shipping fleet will turn its eye on Haven and whatever sector gets liberated from the League.
But again: the independents they're displacing are not going to be able to make up for the shipping shortfall in the League proper.

There are some other ways to mitigate the shipping vacume. SL regitered hulls do strictly local shipping, and where someone could buy gadget x from someone across a wormhold junciton for $10, they could probably buy the same gadget fro $11 at a nearby system.

If they could, they would do so already.

"""some people""" is one analyst which shows STATIC thinking. Economics is DYNAMIC.

An example of static thinking: Every few years there is a proposal in the US congress is introduced that all wages above a certain amount (example $200,000) be taxed at 100% rate, that would solve the budget deficit forever.

Dynamic thinking: At best, it would work for one year. All salaries would be adjusted: Someone that used to have a salary of $300K, would have a $200K salary and perks worth $100K - multiple company vehicles, unlimited travel for spouse and children, etc. He/she would be paid $200K for his work, but would actually receive $300K for his work.

Manticoran merchant shipping will expand into haven and silesia. They will also expand everywhere else: North of the SL, South of the SL, East of the SL, West of the SL, Above the SL and below the SL.

There will be a time of Chaos while things work out, with SL shipping at about 25%-50% the 1920PD levels.

But within a 2-3 years it will probably stabilize at about 80%-90% the 1920PD levels.

darrell wrote:
"""some people""" is one analyst which shows STATIC thinking. Economics is DYNAMIC.

An example of static thinking: Every few years there is a proposal in the US congress is introduced that all wages above a certain amount (example $200,000) be taxed at 100% rate, that would solve the budget deficit forever.

Dynamic thinking: At best, it would work for one year. All salaries would be adjusted: Someone that used to have a salary of $300K, would have a $200K salary and perks worth $100K - multiple company vehicles, unlimited travel for spouse and children, etc. He/she would be paid $200K for his work, but would actually receive $300K for his work.

Manticoran merchant shipping will expand into haven and silesia. They will also expand everywhere else: North of the SL, South of the SL, East of the SL, West of the SL, Above the SL and below the SL.

There will be a time of Chaos while things work out, with SL shipping at about 25%-50% the 1920PD levels.

But within a 2-3 years it will probably stabilize at about 80%-90% the 1920PD levels.

yes to some extent Mantie hulls moving out of the League will displace non-Mantie hull into the vacuum that caused. But unless Manticore allows League bound cargo through the wormholes the increase in shipping distance will swamp the ability for current hulls to fill the void. Trade routes lengthened by huge amounts.

Some of that can be addressed by icr asked manufacturing nearby; instead of shipping those products across the breadth of the League but that can't happen so quickly.

Umm, the SL is most of the known human population and probably 90% of the wealth. It's like trying to replace your five daily NYC to London flights with 5 flights from NYC to Niamey, the capital of Niger.