Harrington Vs Palane FIGHT!! Who wins?

In regard to Honor's expertise in coup, this is from Honor Among Enemies:

The Captain, too, wore a gi, and Aubrey blinked as he saw the seven braided rank knots on her belt. He'd known she held a black belt in coup de vitesse, but he'd never realized she ranked quite that high. There were only two formally awarded ranks above seventh; the handful of people who ever hit ninth were referred to simply as "Master Grade," and only a particularly foolish individual asked for a demonstration of why.

Sergeant Major Hallowell's belt, however, had eight knots, and Aubrey swallowed. He'd known the Gunny was holding back in their sessions, but he hadn't guessed Hallowell was holding back quite that much, and he suddenly felt much better about his inability to score on his mentor. Yet the thought was almost lost in his surprise at seeing the Captain here. So far as he knew, she never came to the Marine's gym, and he felt a surge of ambiguous emotion over her presence.

So she was near the top level at least 10 years(?) before 1922PD, albeit between being captured by the peeps, getting married and having a kid, it's possible that she hasn't been concentrating on it quite as much.

Press on.

I think people might be underestimating Honor's abilities and making a similar mistake to the one the MAlign is making vis a vis genetic superiority.

Thandi may have the Mfecane advantages and a Solarian Marine's training regimen, but is that really so much more impressive than any of the San Martinos in the RMMC Honor's sparred against? Also, the scene in WoH with the combat remote shows that Honor trains against opponents that can exceed any human's limitations, yet still win.

I'm more inclined to think it could go either way and that any kind of best of 5 or 7 or whatever would likely be decided by a single point.

jchilds wrote:Also, the scene in WoH with the combat remote shows that Honor trains against opponents that can exceed any human's limitations, yet still win.

But the same reference to the combat remotes, show that those same remotes can/have killed before, and that Honor's armsmen were distinctly unhappy with her 'practicing' at that level. Which implies she doesn't do it much, which means she is not as practiced against "stronger than any human" as the argument could be.

And in no melee fight Honor's yet had, has she "smashed the back of someone's skull in so hard it looked like someone used a hammer", like Thandi did with a single punch. And Honor's never exactly been described as an ogress either.

And there's been comments, that if you read between the lines, show that the Meyhrdahl gen-modifications are described as an 'omni-planet' modification, while the modifications of San Martino's and Mfecane, are described as 'extremes', which again implies far more modification. In this case, it means they're not only far denser and stronger musculature, but denser & harder skeletons. So in a fight between Thandi and Honor, Honor would actually have to specifically be trying to break Thandi's bones, while the reverse is likely to happen accidentally.


And as other people have observed, Honor more toys at doing the hand to hand fighting, she does it in spare time, or makes the time to go spar in the gym. Her full-time job, being an Admiral, isn't very conducive to spending hours upon hours in the gym, or even just doing weight-work and kata's.

Thandi's full-time job IS practicing, and working out, and fighting. And when you consider she's the head of Torch's military, which is ground-force heavy, and also rather notably untrained/self-trained, Thandi probably spends, as much or more time now in the gyms, than she did as a mere Solarian Marine Lt.


And while it's being discussed, Honor's telempathic abilities are actually more of a hindrance than a help, in what is notionally a friendly sparring. It was pointed out early in the series, when Honor was doing her early sword work, paraphrased because I can't be bothered to open up the book for the exact quote

in the salle, a touch is only a touch and it's only the first touch that counts

In true melee combat, as shown in both Honor defending Benjamin in HotQ, or Thandi just blowing through the Masadan Scrags, the first hit to get through is devasting and extremely debilitating. But Honor still needs to really consciously 'relax' her mental guard to sense others. Which means she's not properly relaxed yet concentrating on Thandi. Think of Honor's sword duel against Burdette, she was paying rapt attention to everything, yet at the same time totally relaxed. We also saw elements of that when Honor was sparring with Sergeant Major Hallowell on the Wayfarer, how both Honor and Hallowell 'moved as one' in front of Wanderman's eyes. If Honor's thinking of her telempathy, which isn't true mind-reading, she's not properly concentrating on the here and now, so it's actually a distraction and a net gain in Thandi's favor.

Zakharra wrote:Assuming the finger pulser is off the table, in almost all bouts, I'd give the win to Thandie. While Honor is good, real good, she is, at the core, a naval officer who visits the gym fairly often. While Thandie is a ground officer who regularly practices hand to hand combat, and who has used her skills in hand to hand combat, and regularly practices with the Scrags who are skilled in down and dirty fighting, which will push Thandie far more than Honor's gym practice matches.

Simply put, Thandie has far more practice and expertise at hand to hand fighting, she is stronger and faster (Thandi is -strong-, stronger than Honor I believe, and -very- fast-) and is more likely to rip off Honor's arm and beat her into the ground with it. Not even Honor's tele/empathic abilities would help since hand to hand combat happens real fast.

Actually, Honor has decades of practice on Thandi, because she's much older. She's also got the super arm, telempathy and a fair amount of combat experience, though less, and less recent, than Thandi. If it had been Thandi at that dinner with Benjamin, without a treecat warning system, she'd have men dead. (Of course, Thandi was a mere child at the time, so there's that.).

But yeah, if adult Thandi had been there and she'd twigged at the same time Honor did, there wouldn't have been an assassin alive when Palace Security arrived or a mark on her.

So Thandi 2 falls out of 3, but she'd be sweating and might even have a bruise or two. But don't worry, the ship has a fine doctor.

cthia wrote:What is Thandi's rating?

According to the last book it's 'force of nature'. According to Anton and Victor, she's one of the deadliest hand to hand combatants in the galaxy and equal to about a squad of RMMC Marines in the same circumstances.

That's the same book that pointed out that there's little physical differences between Scrags and Honor.

You know, the Scrags that Thandi throws around for fun and whose bones she breaks just to reinforce a point.

Thandi's a highly trained professional that has unimaginable physical advantages. Professional, as in does this kind of thing for a living.

Honor is a highly trained hobbyist. Yeah, she's used her training on occasion effectively but she's still a hobbyist.

I figure Honor gets one shot early and either it works or she's hosed.

My bet's on Thandi in a single fall match or 2 out of 3. Honor may score a fall if it's 2 out of 3.

jtg452 wrote:

cthia wrote:What is Thandi's rating?

According to the last book it's 'force of nature'. According to Anton and Victor, she's one of the deadliest hand to hand combatants in the galaxy and equal to about a squad of RMMC Marines in the same circumstances.

That's the same book that pointed out that there's little physical differences between Scrags and Honor.

You know, the Scrags that Thandi throws around for fun and whose bones she breaks just to reinforce a point.

Thandi's a highly trained professional that has unimaginable physical advantages. Professional, as in does this kind of thing for a living.

Honor is a highly trained hobbyist. Yeah, she's used her training on occasion effectively but she's still a hobbyist.

I figure Honor gets one shot early and either it works or she's hosed.

My bet's on Thandi in a single fall match or 2 out of 3. Honor may score a fall if it's 2 out of 3.

In a sparring match Thandi wins. In a death match Honor wins because simply put a fight of this type would take place outside the normal venues such as a gym and Honor would not limit herself to fighting fair; she would find a way. Not only is Honor very fast, she is also fast on tactics and thinking outside the box.

npadln wrote:In a sparring match Thandi wins. In a death match Honor wins because simply put a fight of this type would take place outside the normal venues such as a gym and Honor would not limit herself to fighting fair; she would find a way. Not only is Honor very fast, she is also fast on tactics and thinking outside the box.

And has a built in pulser that is probably powerful enough to put Thandi down hard with any head or torso hit and that she has demonstrated a willingness to use if lethally threatened

The answer to this one is obvious.

Thandi Palane. Because Victor Cachat will kill Honor before she'll be able to hurt Thandi.

clancy688 wrote:The answer to this one is obvious.

Thandi Palane. Because Victor Cachat will kill Honor before she'll be able to hurt Thandi.

Well, with all the treecats entering the fleet now, Victor could probably infiltrate rather easily, because he's got the closest mind a human could possibly have to a treecats:

there are two classifications of enemies: those who have been suitably dealt with, and those who are still alive

If Victor ever decides Honor's going to die, she has nothing but plot armor against that

Somtaaw wrote:

clancy688 wrote:The answer to this one is obvious.

Thandi Palane. Because Victor Cachat will kill Honor before she'll be able to hurt Thandi.

Well, with all the treecats entering the fleet now, Victor could probably infiltrate rather easily, because he's got the closest mind a human could possibly have to a treecats:

there are two classifications of enemies: those who have been suitably dealt with, and those who are still alive

If Victor ever decides Honor's going to die, she has nothing but plot armor against that

Um, she has a treecat whose hell bent on her survival as if his own life depends on it - well, 'cause it does. And two armsmen who won't dare see this particular charge die at the hands of any single man, certainly not on their watch. Then there's a finger pulser at the end of a bionic arm all attached to a coup de vitesse weapon of mASS destruction receiving inpetus from an empathic mind.

If all else fails, then she can rely on plot armor and all of the thousands of fans wielding pitch forks - led by yours truly.