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LAC Style Destroyers?

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LAC Style Destroyers?
Post by Bewildered   » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:59 am

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This is probably a horrendous notion which you'll all shoot holes in, but would an LAC style destroyer be feasible? Obviously it's technically possible but would it actually be useful in combat? I'm thinking something akin to B5's White Stars, or Star Trek's Defiant class, both of which were deadly in their respective universes.

[Warning text wall! :D ]

A Shrike is 20,000 metric tons, 115 meters long, with a a maximum beam of 19.2 meters and a crew of 10. All weapons are forward mounted. These include the BC strength graser, 4x AS launchers, 4x CM tubes, and 6x point defence lasers. According to the Honorverse wiki they're 70 metres long rather than 115 so I'm not sure if they're affected by the great resizing. Maximum acceleration also seems to favour the destroyer classes - 635 G for a Shrike, and a Roland having maximum normal acceleration of 590 G, and a maximum military acceleration of 780 G. Since I'm under the impression that LACs are supposed to be capable of greater acceleration than heavier ships I'm not sure if there's an issue with the data I'm looking at.

The Nat Turner class has been described as a hyper-capable Shrike, and is loosely akin to what I'm thinking of, but frigates really aren't all that combat capable regardless of how advanced they may be. I'm guessing the Nat Turner is roughly 50,000 tonnes since a courier vessel is about 40,000 and that mounts engines, spartan crew quarters, message banks, and no weapons - I'm assuming the removal of the message bank mass would permit adequate quarters, but that the frigate's weapons require increased mass. In an infodump I stumbled over: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/322/1 DW said that even traditional tonnage destroyers are no longer a survivable proposition, also that frigate wolfpacks are not a viable tactic.

The early 19th century Noblesse class of destroyer were 68,250 tons, 351 metres long with a beam of 41 metres and a height of 24 metres whilst the Culverin Class which was the last of the 19th century builds was 104,000 tons, 404 metres long, with a beam of 48 metres and a height of 27 metres. It's successor the Wolfhound class was slightly larger at 123,500 tonnes a length of 428 metres, a beam of 51 metres, and a height of 29 metres, but construction switched to the Roland class as soon as said class' superiority became evident. While the specifications of the Roland are still classified, it's mass - 188,560 tons, has been revealed, and it's length may be reasonably estimated as close to 500 metres.

The original LAC was "... the smallest possible hull wrapped around the [BC sized] energy weapon mounted." Additional tonnage was allocated for missiles, point defences, and of course crew. One hit and it's toast of course, but that's now true of anything smaller than cruisers! While destroyer crew complements have shrunk through automation the Roland still requires a crew of 62. Given the greater size of the Roland those crew may not be guaranteed kills if a missile hits, but one hit means a lot more casualties than would be the case if a Shrike were lost.

Assuming a "hyper-capable LAC" were designed around dreadnought rather than battlecruiser weaponry like the Shrike, though of course the focus is now on missile exchanges and pod laying, would it be feasible? I'm assuming a frigate would be far too small of hull, but would a Noblesse sized destroyer be capable of holding pods if stripped of all "non-essentials"? Equally important, could a destroyer be run by a crew of 20? Given it's fragility armour would likely be a waste of time - speed, electronics, shielding, and superior tactics being the key to success, or survival.

DW mentioned that the need to support a frigate deployment largely negates their flexibility over LACs, but a freighter would be slightly simpler and cheaper to run than a CLAC! Freighters have already been used as arsenal ships so a minor modification to allow external docking, and the provision of say a rec centre, shouldn't be hard.

Given DW's comments this probably isn't feasible so this'll all be shot down in a hurry, but I'm curious to hear the flaws.
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Re: LAC Style Destroyers?
Post by Duckk   » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:19 am

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Re: LAC Style Destroyers?
Post by FLHerne   » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:32 am

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Duckk wrote:http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/76/1

No, that's exactly the opposite idea.

RFC thinks non-hyper-capable destroyer-sized vessels (regardless of layout) are a hopeless idea.

The OP proposes hyper-capable destroyers that happen to be laid out similar to an LAC.

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Re: LAC Style Destroyers?
Post by Duckk   » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:12 pm

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Oops! :oops:

We have a "LAC style" destroyer already: the Roland-class. BuShips isn't entirely happy with it, but accept the tradeoffs in order to mount Mk16 missiles.
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Re: LAC Style Destroyers?
Post by darrell   » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:21 pm

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Duckk wrote:Oops! :oops:

We have a "LAC style" destroyer already: the Roland-class. BuShips isn't entirely happy with it, but accept the tradeoffs in order to mount Mk16 missiles.


option 1: spinal mount weapons, a shrike graser, 4 destroyer missile tubes, 100 missile storage, The A version has a command deck, the B version has a platoon of marines but no command deck. If I am guessing correctly should be about 80K tons.

Option 2: spinal mount weapons, a shrike graser, 4 Mk-16 missile tubes, 50 missile storage, a platoon of marines but no command deck. If I am guessing correctly should also be about 80K tons. (would be part of a squadron with 2 rolands for the command decks, 1 each division.)
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Re: LAC Style Destroyers?
Post by The E   » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:50 pm

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darrell wrote:option 1: spinal mount weapons, a shrike graser, 4 destroyer missile tubes, 100 missile storage, The A version has a command deck, the B version has a platoon of marines but no command deck. If I am guessing correctly should be about 80K tons.

Option 2: spinal mount weapons, a shrike graser, 4 Mk-16 missile tubes, 50 missile storage, a platoon of marines but no command deck. If I am guessing correctly should also be about 80K tons. (would be part of a squadron with 2 rolands for the command decks, 1 each division.)


What role are these ships supposed to fill, exactly? In what specific areas are these better than LACs, Avalons and Rolands?

These ships, as designed, are death traps against an equivalent tech opponent, and deploying them against technologically inferior enemies still exposes them to much risk that existing classes, built for MDM combat, can handily avoid.

Here's a tip when you're trying to come up with theoretical ship designs. First, start with the mission. Look at the missions the Navy you're designing for flies, then look at their ship inventory, and try to identify weak points that need to be filled.

Right now, the RMN has no need for a hyper-capable combatant that is less capable in the fleet defense/antishipping role than the Roland, or less capable than the Avalon in the light cruiser/patrol ship role.
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Re: LAC Style Destroyers?
Post by Somtaaw   » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:23 pm

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LAC's with spinal mounts are effective primarily due to flight mechanics.... they're fast enough at the helm, and small enough to be really hard targets (with or without bow walls/bucklers) that they can fire spinally.

If you look up the original Shrike briefings, I believe it was then Captain JG Alice Truman briefing Gearman, and two others, and as part of the reader information expansion, there was a passage about how there'd been design attempts for spinal capital ships, which failed for obvious reasons, and how the LAC's would succeed by their small size and difficulty.


When you couple the fuel needs so your spinal-mounted destroyer can brute force turn their vulnerable (and easy to hit) bows away from the target, you can't possibly pack in as much stealth/EW as LAC's do, which means you're detected farther out.


The only upside to using a LAC-style built destroyer, would be your main graser wouldn't be battlecruiser-sized, it'd be superdreadnought (or larger), and they'd be firing full-up DDM's out of their off-bore, rotating magazine missiles, instead of the undersized LAC ones. But the cost for gaining that increased firepower, is again... easier to detect, easier to hit, and harder to maneuver.
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Re: LAC Style Destroyers?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:22 pm

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Bewildered wrote:Maximum acceleration also seems to favour the destroyer classes - 635 G for a Shrike, and a Roland having maximum normal acceleration of 590 G, and a maximum military acceleration of 780 G. Since I'm under the impression that LACs are supposed to be capable of greater acceleration than heavier ships I'm not sure if there's an issue with the data I'm looking at.
Yeah, there's a couple 'gotchas' in the way House of Steel laid out its information (and it's the source of those numbers).

In general the weapons fit of each ship class is as of it's last major refit (not necessarily what it mounted when first designed).
However acceleration is just the opposite; that is reported in as the design acceleration with original compensators.

The reason a Roland has a higher listed acceleration than a Shrike is that it was designed something like 8 years later; using several generations more advanced compensators.


In general ships with a newer in-service date will have higher accelerations than ones with older in-service dates. But there's still a subtlety there because in a few cases the design (and design accel) were finalized a year or more before the class was laid down; this is (I assume) what leads to the odd case where a ship has a noticeably lower acceleration improvement than other designs that entered service that same year.
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Re: LAC Style Destroyers?
Post by darrell   » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:40 pm

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The E wrote:
darrell wrote:option 1: spinal mount weapons, a shrike graser, 4 destroyer missile tubes, 100 missile storage, The A version has a command deck, the B version has a platoon of marines but no command deck. If I am guessing correctly should be about 80K tons.

Option 2: spinal mount weapons, a shrike graser, 4 Mk-16 missile tubes, 50 missile storage, a platoon of marines but no command deck. If I am guessing correctly should also be about 80K tons. (would be part of a squadron with 2 rolands for the command decks, 1 each division.)


What role are these ships supposed to fill, exactly? In what specific areas are these better than LACs, Avalons and Rolands?

These ships, as designed, are death traps against an equivalent tech opponent, and deploying them against technologically inferior enemies still exposes them to much risk that existing classes, built for MDM combat, can handily avoid.

Here's a tip when you're trying to come up with theoretical ship designs. First, start with the mission. Look at the missions the Navy you're designing for flies, then look at their ship inventory, and try to identify weak points that need to be filled.

Right now, the RMN has no need for a hyper-capable combatant that is less capable in the fleet defense/antishipping role than the Roland, or less capable than the Avalon in the light cruiser/patrol ship role.


Without a boarding force of marines, the rolands are designed to act in squadrons.

A LAC style destroyer would be designed to operate independently as pirate hunters. As such they would need a platoon of marines for boarding actions, either to secure pirate ships when it is protecting a convoy, or merchant ships when it is raiding enemy merchants, such as the SL.

The reason that I gave two options is because I am unsure of if they would be able to mount Mk-16 tubes or not.
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Re: LAC Style Destroyers?
Post by The E   » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:29 am

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darrell wrote:Without a boarding force of marines, the rolands are designed to act in squadrons.


And? Rolands are, essentially, warfighting Destroyers. They're not patrol craft; they're designed to do the DD scout/escort mission in an environment where the enemy has tech at least within shouting distance of the RMN.

The role of antipiracy/commerce escort/patrol craft that was previously done by Destroyers and CLs is now filled by old, pre-MDM designs and the Avalon class.

See also: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/85/1

A LAC style destroyer would be designed to operate independently as pirate hunters. As such they would need a platoon of marines for boarding actions, either to secure pirate ships when it is protecting a convoy, or merchant ships when it is raiding enemy merchants, such as the SL.

The reason that I gave two options is because I am unsure of if they would be able to mount Mk-16 tubes or not.


Again: The RMN already has a design for this role. It's called the Avalon class. Most of them are currently in Silesia, doing antipiracy work.
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