So, in terms of deadly women...

kzt wrote:The fundamental reality is that Beowulf security has been depicted as pretty hopeless. Have you read beginnings? They didn't have any real internal security, known manpower operatives can openly travel around Beowulf and nobody notices.

So anything you provide the Beowulf for production and general use will go to the MA. It's their main target and they been setting up for centuries. So a decision to build Mk23 there means that you are also delivering the entire technical data package on how to build them to the MA in short order. Same thing with the KH2s.

I bet beowulf gets security conscious very quickly

Option 1: Misdirection: Since the MK-41 capacitor MDM is only 18% bigger than single drive. I am guessing that beowulf could build a capital ship dual drive missile the same size as the standard capital ship single drive missile.

Option 2: Build parts: they build the micro fusion plants. They build the laser heads separately. They build the drives in a third plant, the computer in a 4th, the body in a 5th, etc. They ship the components to manticore that assembles the components into a missile, and beowulf doesn't build the completed missile for the alignment to steal.

edit: Plus, there is a difference between military security and security in open society. They may have good military security already, after all the biological survey corps is one of the top military organizations in the galaxy.

darrell wrote:I bet beowulf gets security conscious very quickly

edit: Plus, there is a difference between military security and security in open society. They may have good military security already, after all the biological survey corps is one of the top military organizations in the galaxy.

You can't. It's how the society is. If they were that different they wouldn't be Beowulf. And it's really really hard to try to add security than already functioning system. And they have had centuries to plant agents and compromise various systems.

And can you show it is not the case that the BSC was just playing the role assigned to them, same as the ballroom?

kzt wrote:The fundamental reality is that Beowulf security has been depicted as pretty hopeless. Have you read beginnings? They didn't have any real internal security, known manpower operatives can openly travel around Beowulf and nobody notices.

So anything you provide the Beowulf for production and general use will go to the MA. It's their main target and they been setting up for centuries. So a decision to build Mk23 there means that you are also delivering the entire technical data package on how to build them to the MA in short order. Same thing with the KH2s.

I wouldn't go quite that far, Beowulf security forces are probably very effective if they know there's a problem. If your basic criminal keeps his head down and doesn't get noticed they can operate long, long time. It's like how the police notice a new drug dealer/kingpin, the dude suddenly gets very flashy with cash e.g. new high end cars, electronics, clothes, bling etc. The old adage of the nail that sticks out shall be hammered down. As a real world example. This took place about ten years ago a rookie state police officer pulled over a guy to give him a fix-it ticket (broken taillight). The guy jumps out of his pickup truck and starts shouting, I give up over and over, the trooper is confused as hell until the guy pull a tarp off a body in the bed of the truck. The trooper had just captured a unknown serial killer that had been operating for over ten years and later admitted to killing 27 women in 4 states namely WV, MD, VA and where he was captured PA.

darrell wrote:{snip} Since the MK-41 capacitor MDM is only 18% bigger than single drive. I am guessing that beowulf could build a capital ship dual drive missile the same size as the standard capital ship single drive missile.

Where are you getting those #s? We've neve been given firm stats on the mk 41 or mk 23.

To date all we know is the mk 19 massed 130 tons and the follow on mk 27 and mk 28 capital missiles massed 120 tons. The mk 41 used 3 capicator sacks and 3 drive systems - those same components in a single drive missile make up more than 1/2 the mass, so how can a mk 41 ONLY mass 18% more than a mk 19 or mk 28?

Every DDM we've seen is larger than the single drive missile it was based on. You always need to include in the mass of the extra drive systems, in addition to the fusion reactor, which masses more than a single drive's capacitor stack, and then add the sensors and warhead from the single drive missile, which may also need more space for the longer ranged targeting and comms systems. Don,t forget to add the extra mass of the grav baffles which allow mdms to work and the extra mass of of the enlarged frame to hold it all.

Theemile wrote:

darrell wrote:{snip} Since the MK-41 capacitor MDM is only 18% bigger than single drive. I am guessing that beowulf could build a capital ship dual drive missile the same size as the standard capital ship single drive missile.

Where are you getting those #s? We've neve been given firm stats on the mk 41 or mk 23.

To date all we know is the mk 19 massed 130 tons and the follow on mk 27 and mk 28 capital missiles massed 120 tons. The mk 41 used 3 capicator sacks and 3 drive systems - those same components in a single drive missile make up more than 1/2 the mass, so how can a mk 41 ONLY mass 18% more than a mk 19 or mk 28?

Every DDM we've seen is larger than the single drive missile it was based on. You always need to include in the mass of the extra drive systems, in addition to the fusion reactor, which masses more than a single drive's capacitor stack, and then add the sensors and warhead from the single drive missile, which may also need more space for the longer ranged targeting and comms systems. Don,t forget to add the extra mass of the grav baffles which allow mdms to work and the extra mass of of the enlarged frame to hold it all.

I inferred the size of the Mk-41 from a quote in "In Enemy Hands"

In Enemy hands wrote:I don't know about you, My Lord, but I'll sacrifice eighteen percent of my total missile load for that performance envelope!"

since we are sacrificing 18% of missile power, that indicates that the missiles themselves are probably 18 % larger.

Remember that the Mk-41 used some new components such as new capacitors that made them much smaller.

Ashes of Victory wrote:but if they wanted to accept bigger launchers and lower missile load-outs, they could probably match the extended range capabilities of Ghost Rider's offensive side. Heck, build the suckers big enough, and they could do it with off-the-shelf components, Stew!"

Where do you get that a DDM is bigger than a SDM? since BC sized single drive missile lunchers and DDM launchers are the same mod number, with just the letter being different indicates that the DDM can be fired by a launcher that is the same size for both, the only difference is the new launcher has the ability to start the fusion plant,

Besides, Who said that a capital ship capacitor powered DDM was equal to the MK-31 except for the drive? Use a less powerful comupter, less powerful warhead, and it definitely could be done, even with "off the shelf components"

kzt wrote:

darrell wrote:I bet beowulf gets security conscious very quickly

edit: Plus, there is a difference between military security and security in open society. They may have good military security already, after all the biological survey corps is one of the top military organizations in the galaxy.

You can't. It's how the society is. If they were that different they wouldn't be Beowulf. And it's really really hard to try to add security than already functioning system. And they have had centuries to plant agents and compromise various systems.

And can you show it is not the case that the BSC was just playing the role assigned to them, same as the ballroom?

Manticore has already been bitten once regarding their infrastructure and production capability. Beowulf isn't part of Manticore or part of the Alliance, but they are counting on Beowulf for certain production items. So it seems that Manticore would help beef up Beowulfan security under the radar. The GA can ill-afford to lose more production capability. Especially since Manty actions helped stir up a hornets nest against Beowulf and the League. Regarding Manticoran interaction against the League (and considering the demonstrated MAlign ability to move SLN fleets around with impunity), Manticore has a moral responsibility to Beowulf. And because the GA has so much "experience" fighting (politically and militarily) they should be able to foresee an imminent attack on Beowulf.

What's that idiom, "once bitten, twice shy?"

I'm thinking that Beowulf should at least be swimming with treecats? I see no reason why it shouldn't and many reasons that it should have been, yesterday, to pick up on certain mental vibrations of miscreant mischief. The 'Cats did say that they were ready and willing to assist against the enemies of Manticore. And the 'Cats would like nothing more than to shred the plans of the MAlign.

At any rate, "'Cat checking" as many avenues of Beowulfan government as possible, would fall under the original intent of the treecat's personal offer of assistance. And rightly so, in this case for certain. And treecat assistance seems to me susceptible to pass the "politically acceptable outside influence or coercion" test.

You ever been out driving and run into DWI task forces - checkpoints and roadblocks? Well, treecats should implement some version of that along every hall or corridor of government offices and complexes - nonchalantly meandering around.

Why are all people are thinking in "fleets"?

Give some agents a few A-bombs and bring them to Beowulf would be much easier to realize than an military attack and if you place them right can do the same amount of damage. I say "Yawata Hit"! I think Beowuld has some orbital medical plants, blow them up and the debris are good as kinetic projectiles.

darrell wrote:
I inferred the size of the Mk-41 from a quote in "In Enemy Hands"

In Enemy hands wrote:I don't know about you, My Lord, but I'll sacrifice eighteen percent of my total missile load for that performance envelope!"

since we are sacrificing 18% of missile power, that indicates that the missiles themselves are probably 18 % larger.

Remember that the Mk-41 used some new components such as new capacitors that made them much smaller.

Ashes of Victory wrote:but if they wanted to accept bigger launchers and lower missile load-outs, they could probably match the extended range capabilities of Ghost Rider's offensive side. Heck, build the suckers big enough, and they could do it with off-the-shelf components, Stew!"

Where do you get that a DDM is bigger than a SDM? since BC sized single drive missile lunchers and DDM launchers are the same mod number, with just the letter being different indicates that the DDM can be fired by a launcher that is the same size for both, the only difference is the new launcher has the ability to start the fusion plant,

Besides, Who said that a capital ship capacitor powered DDM was equal to the MK-31 except for the drive? Use a less powerful comupter, less powerfupowerl warhead, and it definitely could be done, even with "off the shelf components"

The "In enemy Hands" quote is referring to the change from the old 12 missile SDM pods to the new 10 missile MDM pods - an 18% decrease in towed missiles. Remember - at that time in IEH, Podnaughts were on the drawing board. There is no reference to size or mass, just shots per pod.

Your "Ashes of Victory" quote was Scotty Tremaine talking to another COLAC about the Havenites building MDMs using their standard kit - not a comment on how Manticore did it, but did lay out how easy it was. Notice I gave you the masses of 3 marks of RMN capitol missiles, and they were decreasing in mass, Manticore had been installing the updated capacitors in missiles for several years, so their use in the Mk 41 was nothing new, or was just the latest iteration on the miniaturization, not a quantum leap over the previous generation. That would not come until the fusion plant of the mk 23.

BCs and CAs in RMN service use the same missiles. The Star Knight and the Reliant had the same mk launchers (the 7b) and are limited to the mk 13 ER missile, while the Sag-C and the Nike have a newer launcher, specialially designed and armored for the fusion plant in the mk 16 missile. Notice at Monica the 2 Star Knights did not have the Hexapuma's range - they still used the older missile. Why? The Mk 16 DDM is larger - it's speced at 94 tons in SFTS, while the mk13 is speced at 78 tons in IFF. Both originally had a 6 rod, 10Mton nuke warhead, while RMN capitol warheads have a 10 rod, ~60Mton warhead (Prior to the -G upgrade that is).

The reason the Mk 16 is smaller than a Capital missile is the smaller warhead in the mk 16 and other cruiser weight missiles, once you scale up the warhead to Capital specs, the rest of the missile has to scale as well.

Theemile wrote:

darrell wrote:
I inferred the size of the Mk-41 from a quote in "In Enemy Hands"
"""I don't know about you, My Lord, but I'll sacrifice eighteen percent of my total missile load for that performance envelope!" """

since we are sacrificing 18% of missile power, that indicates that the missiles themselves are probably 18 % larger.

Remember that the Mk-41 used some new components such as new capacitors that made them much smaller. from "Ashes of Victory"
"""but if they wanted to accept bigger launchers and lower missile load-outs, they could probably match the extended range capabilities of Ghost Rider's offensive side. Heck, build the suckers big enough, and they could do it with off-the-shelf components, Stew!" """

Where do you get that a DDM is bigger than a SDM? since BC sized single drive missile lunchers and DDM launchers are the same mod number, with just the letter being different indicates that the DDM can be fired by a launcher that is the same size for both, the only difference is the new launcher has the ability to start the fusion plant,

Besides, Who said that a capital ship capacitor powered DDM was equal to the MK-31 except for the drive? Use a less powerful comupter, less powerfupowerl warhead, and it definitely could be done, even with "off the shelf components"

The "In enemy Hands" quote is referring to the change from the old 12 missile SDM pods to the new 10 missile MDM pods - an 18% decrease in towed missiles. Remember - at that time in IEH, Podnaughts were on the drawing board. There is no reference to size or mass, just shots per pod.

Your "Ashes of Victory" quote was Scotty Tremaine talking to another COLAC about the Havenites building MDMs using their standard kit - not a comment on how Manticore did it, but did lay out how easy it was. Notice I gave you the masses of 3 marks of RMN capitol missiles, and they were decreasing in mass, Manticore had been installing the updated capacitors in missiles for several years, so their use in the Mk 41 was nothing new, or was just the latest iteration on the miniaturization, not a quantum leap over the previous generation. That would not come until the fusion plant of the mk 23.

BCs and CAs in RMN service use the same missiles. The Star Knight and the Reliant had the same mk launchers (the 7b) and are limited to the mk 13 ER missile, while the Sag-C and the Nike have a newer launcher, specialially designed and armored for the fusion plant in the mk 16 missile. Notice at Monica the 2 Star Knights did not have the Hexapuma's range - they still used the older missile. Why? The Mk 16 DDM is larger - it's speced at 94 tons in SFTS, while the mk13 is speced at 78 tons in IFF. Both originally had a 6 rod, 10Mton nuke warhead, while RMN capitol warheads have a 10 rod, ~60Mton warhead (Prior to the -G upgrade that is).

The reason the Mk 16 is smaller than a Capital missile is the smaller warhead in the mk 16 and other cruiser weight missiles, once you scale up the warhead to Capital specs, the rest of the missile has to scale as well.

The So called "newer" launcher is the 7C. In nomenclature it is very very similar to the 7B. This indicates to me that the likely possibility is that the fusion DDM is the same physical size as the old CA/BC missile.

12 missiles is 20% more than missiles than 10.
10 missiles is 17% (seventeen) percent fewer missiles than 12 missiles.

Neither of those is the same as """eighteen percent of my total missile load"""

Presuming that the drive and capacitor for a SDM takes up half the missile body, using "off the shelf components" a three stage missile would be twice the size. IMO it is not likely that manticore could fit 10 missiles in a missile pod instead of 12 if the missiles were twice as big.

IIRC there was something somewhere that said havenite single drive missiles were about 25% larger, which would make havenite missile pods almost twice as large. to be able to throw 16 SDM's.

darrell wrote:

Theemile wrote:
The "In enemy Hands" quote is referring to the change from the old 12 missile SDM pods to the new 10 missile MDM pods - an 18% decrease in towed missiles. Remember - at that time in IEH, Podnaughts were on the drawing board. There is no reference to size or mass, just shots per pod.

Your "Ashes of Victory" quote was Scotty Tremaine talking to another COLAC about the Havenites building MDMs using their standard kit - not a comment on how Manticore did it, but did lay out how easy it was. Notice I gave you the masses of 3 marks of RMN capitol missiles, and they were decreasing in mass, Manticore had been installing the updated capacitors in missiles for several years, so their use in the Mk 41 was nothing new, or was just the latest iteration on the miniaturization, not a quantum leap over the previous generation. That would not come until the fusion plant of the mk 23.

BCs and CAs in RMN service use the same missiles. The Star Knight and the Reliant had the same mk launchers (the 7b) and are limited to the mk 13 ER missile, while the Sag-C and the Nike have a newer launcher, specialially designed and armored for the fusion plant in the mk 16 missile. Notice at Monica the 2 Star Knights did not have the Hexapuma's range - they still used the older missile. Why? The Mk 16 DDM is larger - it's speced at 94 tons in SFTS, while the mk13 is speced at 78 tons in IFF. Both originally had a 6 rod, 10Mton nuke warhead, while RMN capitol warheads have a 10 rod, ~60Mton warhead (Prior to the -G upgrade that is).

The reason the Mk 16 is smaller than a Capital missile is the smaller warhead in the mk 16 and other cruiser weight missiles, once you scale up the warhead to Capital specs, the rest of the missile has to scale as well.

The So called "newer" launcher is the 7C. In nomenclature it is very very similar to the 7B. This indicates to me that the likely possibility is that the fusion DDM is the same physical size as the old CA/BC missile.

12 missiles is 20% more than missiles than 10.
10 missiles is 17% (seventeen) percent fewer missiles than 12 missiles.

Neither of those is the same as """eighteen percent of my total missile load"""

Presuming that the drive and capacitor for a SDM takes up half the missile body, using "off the shelf components" a three stage missile would be twice the size. IMO it is not likely that manticore could fit 10 missiles in a missile pod instead of 12 if the missiles were twice as big.

IIRC there was something somewhere that said havenite single drive missiles were about 25% larger, which would make havenite missile pods almost twice as large. to be able to throw 16 SDM's.

As I said above, we know the exact masses of the Mk 13 and the mk 16 Cruiser weight missiles, and the DDM is 16 tons more massive than the 78 ton Mk 13 single drive missile. And we know that the old launchers cannot fire the newer missile; so be it 1 letter off - it's a totally different launcher. David actually has several postings on the difference between capacitor and fusion based launchers - the newer ones include armoring on them and an armored queue where the fusion plant is spinning up inside the ship's hull.

You know David does allow characters to make mistakes, and a 1% mistake in quick math is not that much (especially for someone like Honor who will tell you her math skills suck), But I can only speak to the greater conversation, as it was about the number of towed pod based missiles, since no ships which could fire an MDM existed yet at that point in the series. The 10 missile MDM pods very well could have been more massive than the earlier 12 missile pods - we don't have masses or dimensions on them.

At the Time MDMs were introduced, Forumites estimated the mass of RMN MDMs all the way up to 350tons, with the most reasonable estmates being in the ~250 ton region. But David has never confirmed the masses, nor anyone from BuNine as far as I know. We were hoping to see that in House of Steel, but no - authorial fiat continues.

It's been said many times that the Havenite missiles use a larger warhead (to compensate for suckier electronics) and are generally a larger missile. I don't know if 25% larger is correct, but it sounds right, and wouldn't surprise me. That's why RHN podnaughts only have ~350-400 pods in them though they are larger than a Medusa and have no broadside launchers - the missiles are just so frigging big.